Whistleblower - Ensign Peak Advisors

[Flystripper]

Ahem

whoops. You got it!

[Eddie]

If you are a kid that can't manage to track down a key to the chapel when you and your friends want to get in to play basketball then you have problems that go far beyond video games and porn.

While this is true - in our area, we're being told that allowing kids to use the keys without an adult present is grounds for having those keys taken away from you. This after the son of a Stake President in the area borrowed daddy's keys to go play ball with his buddies and they walked off with a couple of TV's from the library while they were there. As an aside - I cannot confirm nor deny that I may have tried to get my daughter to take my keys and go to the church as an experiment to see if A) they would really take my keys and B) it would result in a release from my calling.

What's so bizarre about the investment in City Creek is that it was replacing a dead mall (wasn't the Zion mall there?) and that it was being done at the same time the Gateway (a mall that was barely a decade old) was in the news for being a dying mall overrun with homeless people. Did we really think a mall was what we needed?

I think your timing is off just a little. From what I know due to working quite a bit with The Gateway over the last 13 years or so and holding an annual event at their location - while the Crossroads Mall and ZCMI Center were indeed dying malls - part of the reason they were dying is because a bunch of the retailers left for new digs at The Gateway. And The Gateway was doing just fine as a mall until City Creek opened and lured a number of them back - resulting in The Gateway suddenly having a bunch of vacant space. It was after City Creek opened and The Gateway began losing venders that the complaints of homeless people being the reason those venders left began to arise.

[myboynoah]

whoops. You got it!

I liked that they left the murals on the walls of the new command deck.

[MartyFunkhouser]

I think your timing is off just a little. From what I know due to working quite a bit with The Gateway over the last 13 years or so and holding an annual event at their location - while the Crossroads Mall and ZCMI Center were indeed dying malls - part of the reason they were dying is because a bunch of the retailers left for new digs at The Gateway. And The Gateway was doing just fine as a mall until City Creek opened and lured a number of them back - resulting in The Gateway suddenly having a bunch of vacant space. It was after City Creek opened and The Gateway began losing venders that the complaints of homeless people being the reason those venders left began to arise.

That is my recollection of it as well. The Gateway didn't start dying until after City Creek went in. Basically, the blight was right on the doorstep of Temple Square, so the LDS church invested to push the blight elsewhere. It then went to Gateway. I'm not being critical of the church for this decision and it wasn't anything nefarious. It makes good sense to them to keep the area surrounding Temple Square nice.

[Donuthole]

I think your timing is off just a little. From what I know due to working quite a bit with The Gateway over the last 13 years or so and holding an annual event at their location - while the Crossroads Mall and ZCMI Center were indeed dying malls - part of the reason they were dying is because a bunch of the retailers left for new digs at The Gateway. And The Gateway was doing just fine as a mall until City Creek opened and lured a number of them back - resulting in The Gateway suddenly having a bunch of vacant space. It was after City Creek opened and The Gateway began losing venders that the complaints of homeless people being the reason those venders left began to arise.

Well, I just remember hitting up a Jazz game circa 2007 (maybe 2008) when I was in town, and we went to Gateway to kill some time before the game. It was on the edge of sketchy (no homeless people, but I remember the parking garage was pretty empty and graffiti-laden) and was very empty (of both patrons and businesses) relative to back when I had last been there a few years earlier. So perhaps the downfall of Gateway started with the announcement? Because City Creek was not around then, and the Gateway decline had definitely begun.

[imanihonjin]

Did the church (or one of its black mirror for-profits) one the whole Zion complex? I would guess a big part of acquiring CC was to control (prevent) it from becoming a homeless sanctuary.

It likely will one day dry up, but for anyone who has walked around Seattle or Portland it is nice to not have to watch your step to avoid human excrement or a guy napping outside of Nordstrom.

I know. People want to worship Jesus without being bothered by those dastardly homeless folks.

[falafel]

I know. People want to worship Jesus without being bothered by those dastardly homeless folks.

Exactly.

[Eddie]

Well, I just remember hitting up a Jazz game circa 2007 (maybe 2008) when I was in town, and we went to Gateway to kill some time before the game. It was on the edge of sketchy (no homeless people, but I remember the parking garage was pretty empty and graffiti-laden) and was very empty (of both patrons and businesses) relative to back when I had last been there a few years earlier. So perhaps the downfall of Gateway started with the announcement? Because City Creek was not around then, and the Gateway decline had definitely begun.

Could be.

We hold an annual event there and have since 2003-2004. Most of the vender leases were full, though they did take a little hit during the recession. But even back in '07 and '08 we would get 15-20K people to our event and most of the leases were full - but they took a HUGE hit when City Creek opened and they began losing them. Some actually pulled out a year before City Creek opened rather than renewing their lease. Some moved that first year City Creek was opening. I'm talking venders like Apple, J Crew, American Eagle, H & M, Gap, Fanzz, Loft - there's a pretty good group that left The Gateway and really hit them hard - though they may have began some decline earlier, as you say. The years right after City Creek opened we had a hard time pulling 10K people to our event. Normally we got some draw from the stores, but we began being the draw for the stores.

[Art Vandelay]

I know. People want to worship Jesus without being bothered by those dastardly homeless folks.

Exactly! My personal preference is to avoid the ones with bad breath and BO, or a penchant to talk too much as well.

[Green Monstah]

The ultimate determination of the morality of the money hoarding will depend on what they eventually do with it, no?

Yes and no. Imagine you're hoarding a fortune for a time that you can use it for good. While you're waiting for your Good Samaritan moment, your neighbors are dying from an ailment that is treatable (at significant cost), but you withhold your funds for a time when "it's really needed." Is the hoarding moral? Is this a sin of omission? It's definitely not cut and dried, but it certain raises moral questions.

[Green Monstah]

I know. People want to worship Jesus without being bothered by those dastardly homeless folks.

Also, I saw lots of homeless people at City Creek. They were hanging out where the mall crosses a road. Talk about a backfire.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Yes and no. Imagine you're hoarding a fortune for a time that you can use it for good. While you're waiting for your Good Samaritan moment, your neighbors are dying from an ailment that is treatable (at significant cost), but you withhold your funds for a time when "it's really needed." Is the hoarding moral? Is this a sin of omission? It's definitely not cut and dried, but it certain raises moral questions.

Imagine that your neighbor dies and everyone blames you, but the next year you provide the critical funding that results in a cure for the ailment.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That is my recollection of it as well. The Gateway didn't start dying until after City Creek went in. Basically, the blight was right on the doorstep of Temple Square, so the LDS church invested to push the blight elsewhere. It then went to Gateway. I'm not being critical of the church for this decision and it wasn't anything nefarious. It makes good sense to them to keep the area surrounding Temple Square nice.

Yeah for sure. I think the primary motivation of City Creek was to revitalize the temple square area. No doubt about it.

[imanihonjin]

Imagine that your neighbor dies and everyone blames you, but the next year you provide the critical funding that results in a cure for the ailment.

But how much is enough to stockpile? I don't think it is too much to ask for a little visibility into what the goals and plans are. $100B is a ton of freaking money. Are they waiting to get to $200B and then we will see significant outlays? What is the ultimate goal here?

[Jeff Lebowski]

But how much is enough to stockpile? I don't think it is too much to ask for a little visibility into what the goals and plans are. $100B is a ton of freaking money. Are they waiting to get to $200B and then we will see significant outlays? What is the ultimate goal here?

Good question.

How solid is this $100B number? I am hearing people cast serious doubt.