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  • Coming Bloodbath on the Left

    The surprising candor of The Nation article posted by creekster reminds us of the divide in the Democratic party. Believe it or not, not all democrats actually believe that the federal police force and prosecution apparatus should be deployed to criminalize politics unpopular with those who control the mechanisms of such awesome state power; that capitalism is a bad word, that there is any way other than capitalism to create value necessary to pay for homeless shelters, upgrading subway systems, etc.; that intersectionality cred should be the sole criteria for leadership; that America's history is nothing more than a sordid narrative of mass murder and exploitation of people of color and women and the environment by greedy white males; that climate change mandates draconian and ubiquitous government control of our economy and a "moral" way out of fossil fuels rather than technological and pragmatic solutions in a forward looking vector, regardless of the resulting scale of human suffering and death; that socialism (in contrast to capitalism) is a good thing that need not atone for any mass murders and other crimes committed in its name nor account for its repeated failures to solve the economic problem, leading to a scale of human suffering and death unknown in human history before or since; that free speech was a wrong turn taken by the founders of the United States because the masses must be herded like cattle; that humans have regressed to now their lowest point ever, regardless of virtual elimination of starvation, big wars, and global epidemics; or that the Jews are to blame for the Middle East's problems and hold the Western World in thrall of Jewish money.

    No, not every Democrat believes these things, which is why Biden raised more money the first 24 hours after he announced than BS or any other candidate. And the struggle for control of this narrative, literally the soul of the left, is what we'll see played out here in the coming 18 months. I wish the there was a stronger candidate than Biden to face Mordor.

    Here is the referenced article:

    https://www.chronicle.com/article/Is...Putin-s/241777
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 04-30-2019, 12:31 PM.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift

  • #2
    “The left” as referred to by Fox News and some here is not a monolithic entity. You have orgnizations and people like The Nation and Tulsi Gabbard who swoon for chance to be on RTTV. Those same people are also laughably pacifist and think criticizing Maduro is imperialism.

    This isn’t new. The Nation is hardly the liberal standard on these issues, especially when it comes to Russia. Stephen Cohen has a lot to do with that.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by frank ryan View Post
      “The left” as referred to by Fox News and some here is not a monolithic entity. You have orgnizations and people like The Nation and Tulsi Gabbard who swoon for chance to be on RTTV. Those same people are also laughably pacifist and think criticizing Maduro is imperialism.

      This isn’t new. The Nation is hardly the liberal standard on these issues, especially when it comes to Russia. Stephen Cohen has a lot to do with that.
      I don't know what Fox News says. I know that many of us use the term "the left" because "progressives" is not an accurate adjective or noun in this context, and we recognize that probably a majority of Democrats share our critique, so we don't say "Democrats."

      Here, though, my title refers to the full range of views on the left wing that you identify, including Democrats (FYI I've always been independent).
      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

      --Jonathan Swift

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
        The surprising candor of The Nation article posted by creekster reminds us of the divide in the Democratic party. Believe it or not, not all democrats actually believe that the federal police force and prosecution apparatus should be deployed to criminalize politics unpopular with those who control the mechanisms of such awesome state power; that capitalism is a bad word, that there is any way other than capitalism to create value necessary to pay for homeless shelters, upgrading subway systems, etc.; that intersectionality cred should be the sole criteria for leadership; that America's history is nothing more than a sordid narrative of mass murder and exploitation of people of color and women and the environment by greedy white males; that climate change mandates draconian and ubiquitous government control of our economy and a "moral" way out of fossil fuels rather than technological and pragmatic solutions in a forward looking vector, regardless of the resulting scale of human suffering and death; that socialism (in contrast to capitalism) is a good thing that need not atone for any mass murders and other crimes committed in its name nor account for its repeated failures to solve the economic problem, leading to a scale of human suffering and death unknown in human history before or since; that free speech was a wrong turn taken by the founders of the United States because the masses must be herded like cattle; that humans have regressed to now their lowest point ever, regardless of virtual elimination of starvation, big wars, and global epidemics; or that the Jews are to blame for the Middle East's problems and hold the Western World in thrall of Jewish money.

        No, not every Democrat believes these things, which is why Biden raised more money the first 24 hours after he announced than BS or any other candidate. And the struggle for control of this narrative, literally the soul of the left, is what we'll see played out here in the coming 18 months. I wish the there was a stronger candidate than Biden to face Mordor.

        Here is the referenced article:

        https://www.chronicle.com/article/Is...Putin-s/241777
        I find it unnerving how often I am agreeing with you these days.
        PLesa excuse the tpyos.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by creekster View Post
          I find it unnerving how often I am agreeing with you these days.
          Yeah, well, Biden is already pulling away from the field only after a few days since officially announcing. The socialist extreme left described above I think is more of a caricature. I'm sure there are lots like that in the circles SU hangs around on the left coast, but it still doesn't describe the bulk of the rank and file of the dems any more than the Republicans can now all be mostly described as Trumpian white nationalists.

          https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...tion-6730.html
          Last edited by BlueK; 04-30-2019, 01:49 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BlueK View Post
            Yeah, well, Biden is already pulling away from the field only after a few days since officially announcing.

            https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...tion-6730.html
            At this point prior to the 2016 election Trump had not even entered the race. And Biden, who has a long history of speaking gaffes in between sniffing hair of girls and women to whom he is not related, has yet to campaign much. So excuse me if I am not too impressed with those gains. Might play oiut that way, but it is a bit early to call much at all.
            PLesa excuse the tpyos.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by creekster View Post
              At this point prior to the 2016 election Trump had not even entered the race. And Biden, who has a long history of speaking gaffes in between sniffing hair of girls and women to whom he is not related, has yet to campaign much. So excuse me if I am not too impressed with those gains. Might play oiut that way, but it is a bit early to call much at all.
              it is early. But what the numbers say as of today is that the extreme left nutjob element may not be as big across the party as SU says.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BlueK View Post
                it is early. But what the numbers say as of today is that the extreme left nutjob element may not be as big across the party as SU says.
                I don't really think that is what he is saying. But, sure, I hope you're right. And I hope they speak up.

                Although Biden, man, he is not much, except in comparison to Trump. Biden is so weird at times, and so gaffe prone and, IMO, he is just too damn old, and he is starting to sound like it. Listen to him talk these days, he is slurring words and running them together like an old man does.
                PLesa excuse the tpyos.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think Biden will be the Jeb Bush of 2020. A lot of potential money and name recognition, but no fire. Early polls show strong support, but I think that reflects a 'safe pick' mentality. I doubt he is going to generate much grass roots support throughout the primaries.
                  "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                  "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                  - SeattleUte

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My honest belief is that any of these Democratic candidates would moderate in office as Clinton and Obama did, except for BS, who would give us another four years of the same bloodletting. Democrat presidents tend to moderate more than Republicans, because like about all economists, they really do believe in capitalism and trade, etc. I would consider voting for any of them except BS and Warren--she is disqualified on moral grounds including because she will say anything to get what she wants.
                    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                    --Jonathan Swift

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                      I think Biden will be the Jeb Bush of 2020. A lot of potential money and name recognition, but no fire. Early polls show strong support, but I think that reflects a 'safe pick' mentality. I doubt he is going to generate much grass roots support throughout the primaries.
                      Maybe. It's possible he could flame out. This article shows that Jeb Bush at almost the same time before the last election was leading a similarly sized field, but with only 16% support. I think this was pretty much his high water mark. What Trump was able to take advantage of last time is that pretty much every other candidate in a huge field were all pretty much the same in terms of ideas and policies. He was the one who was different. Biden may be positioning himself in a similar way with how many of the dems in a large field are congregating on the left.

                      https://www.politico.com/story/2015/...l-surge-119865
                      Last edited by BlueK; 04-30-2019, 02:26 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                        My honest belief is that any of these Democratic candidates would moderate in office as Clinton and Obama did, except for BS, who would give us another four years of the same bloodletting. Democrat presidents tend to moderate more than Republicans, because like about all economists, they really do believe in capitalism and trade, etc. I would consider voting for any of them except BS and Warren--she is disqualified on moral grounds including because she will say anything to get what she wants.
                        Overall, I think you're right. There is going to be an inevitable drift rightward, no matter who the dem nominee is. Even Sanders or Warren will drift a bit.

                        But I'll still vote for Sanders or Warren! Some moral grounds are higher than others.
                        "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                        "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                        - SeattleUte

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                          Overall, I think you're right. There is going to be an inevitable drift rightward, no matter who the dem nominee is. Even Sanders or Warren will drift a bit.

                          But I'll still vote for Sanders or Warren! Some moral grounds are higher than others.
                          Sanders has been consistent and honest if that counts for anything. He is Jewish, socialist and atheist. So he is going to appeal to a lot of GOPers.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BlueK View Post
                            it is early. But what the numbers say as of today is that the extreme left nutjob element may not be as big across the party as SU says.
                            I don't remember if I ran into this here or from Twitter.

                            https://hiddentribes.us/

                            Our research concludes that we have become a set of tribes, with different codes, values, and even facts. In our public debates, it seems that we no longer just disagree. We reject each other’s premises and doubt each other’s motives. We question each other’s character. We block our ears to diverse perspectives. At home, polarization is souring personal relationships, ruining Thanksgiving dinners, and driving families apart.We are experiencing these divisions in our workplaces, neighborhood groups, even our places of worship. In the media, pundits score points, mock opponents, and talk over each other. On the Internet, social media has become a hotbed of outrage, takedowns, and cruelty—often targeting total strangers.

                            But this can change. A majority of Americans, whom we’ve called the "Exhausted Majority," are fed up by America’s polarization. They know we have more in common than that which divides us: our belief in freedom, equality, and the pursuit of the American dream. They share a deep sense of gratitude that they are citizens of the United States. They want to move past our differences.

                            Turning the tide of tribalism is possible―but it won’t be easy. Americans have real differences and real disagreements with each other. We must be able to listen to each other to understand those differences and find common ground. That’s the focus of the Hidden Tribes project: to understand better what is pulling us apart, and find what can bring us back together.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                              I think Biden will be the Jeb Bush of 2020. A lot of potential money and name recognition, but no fire. Early polls show strong support, but I think that reflects a 'safe pick' mentality. I doubt he is going to generate much grass roots support throughout the primaries.
                              Yeah, I am not sure if Jeb Biden is even the safe pick...

                              Steve Hilton: Joe Biden should be called 'Joe China' - and never be allowed near the White House again
                              [...]
                              Now, the establishment wants its power back. They're running Joe Biden for president, and it is literally impossible to think of a more establishment politician than him. He is the very definition of a corrupt insider.


                              Biden has been a professional politician for nearly 50 years -- and what a record he's built in that time. We know Biden is sexist. His creepy habit of inappropriate touching shows that, while he may not actively discriminate against women -- in his "soul," as he might say -- he views women as less than men. And of course, his creepy clean-up video didn't fool anyone.
                              [...]
                              With Joe Biden, on the other hand, there is a much more worrying relationship with a foreign power, one that presents a vastly bigger threat to America than Russia -- China.

                              In December 2013, then-Vice President Biden rode Air Force Two on an official trip to Asia, as tensions were high over disputed territories in the East China Sea. Biden was joined by his son, Hunter, who was building a private equity firm along with his business partner and friend, Chris Heinz - heir of the Heinz Ketchup family fortune and stepson of then-Secretary of State John Kerry.

                              Vice President Biden and Hunter Biden were ushered into Beijing on a red carpet with a delegation of Chinese officials. From there, Joe went straight into meetings with the vice president of China and President Xi Jinping. The next morning, the Bidens had a meeting with the U.S.-China Business Council. From there, it was off to Villa No.5 of the Diaoyutai State Guesthouse, where Madame Mao lived during the cultural revolution.

                              Joe Biden struck a soft, friendly tone with the Chinese leadership, disappointing allies in the area, like Japan, who were alarmed by China's increasing aggression. But perhaps Joe had other issues besides the global balance of power on his mind, issues like his son's business deals.

                              Hunter's presence on the trip was far from coincidence. Just 10 days later, his company, Rosemont Seneca, signed an exclusive $1 billion deal with the state-owned Bank of China, creating an investment fund called Bohai Harvest, with money backed by the Chinese government. In the words of Peter Schweizer, who first unveiled these conflicts of interest in his book "Secret Empires," "the Chinese government was literally funding a business that it co-owned along with the sons of two of America's most powerful decision makers." That is what it looks like to be "compromised by a foreign power."

                              And that deal was far from a one-off. In 2011, less than a year after opening his company, Hunter Biden was in China working with a company called Thornton Group to explore business opportunities with Chinese state-owned enterprises. The Thornton Group touted the meetings on their Chinese-language website, saying Chinese executives "extended their warm welcome" to the "Thornton Group, with its U.S. partner Rosemont Seneca Chairman Hunter Biden (second son of the now Vice President Joe Biden)."

                              But it's not even just China. A recent court case gave us a close look at the financial statements of Rosemont Seneca Bohai. Most of the money going out of the account was to Hunter Biden. Wait till you see where some of the money going into it came from:

                              • $145K from a Kazak oligarch
                              • $1 million from Chinese entities
                              • $1.2 million from a mysterious LLC tied to a Swiss bank that's been implicated in money laundering
                              • $3.1 million from corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs

                              Speaking of corruption in the Ukraine, recent reporting by investigative journalist John Solomon revealed that in March 2016, when Ukraine's chief prosecutor Viktor Shokin conducted a wide-ranging corruption probe into the natural gas firm Burisma holdings, of which Hunter Biden - who else - was a board member, his father Joe threatened to withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees from the U.S. government unless that prosecutor was fired.
                              [...]
                              https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/stev...te-house-again

                              It seems that both China and Russia owns Biden.
                              "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
                              "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
                              "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
                              GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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