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Thread: Post-Mueller investigation investigations and indictments

  1. #61
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Wimp:

    Trump isn’t nearly as unpopular as people want to think he is. Impeachment proceedings would have very little political upside for the Dems and very big downside. They are safer trying to beat him in an election.
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  2. #62
    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Trump isn’t nearly as unpopular as people want to think he is. Impeachment proceedings would have very little political upside for the Dems and very big downside. They are safer trying to beat him in an election.
    And they will probably do it anyway.
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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Trump isn’t nearly as unpopular as people want to think he is. Impeachment proceedings would have very little political upside for the Dems and very big downside. They are safer trying to beat him in an election.
    You are correct, he is not nearly as unpopular as they want to think he is. But the Dems nominated Hillary, so yes they are dumb enough to push for impeachment proceedings. Heaven help us. It will be eighteen months of chaos and then four more years of Trump.

  4. #64
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Trump isn’t nearly as unpopular as people want to think he is. Impeachment proceedings would have very little political upside for the Dems and very big downside. They are safer trying to beat him in an election.
    Agree. Impeachment simply plays into Trump's hands and will let him run like an outsider again. You can almost hear his stump speeches now
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  5. #65

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    Richard Burr passed on information to Trump’s people. That’s pretty disappointing. Had more respect for him than his house counterparts like Nunes, and gutless Chris Stewart

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    And they will probably do it anyway.
    He certainly deserves to be impeached, but they'd be wise not to. Hang on to this information and beat him over the head with come election time. That's the smart play. I understand the hunger for symbolic impeachment, but for the good of the country we need any other than Trump to win in 2020, and that includes any of the 75 declared democratic candidates and loony-tunes Gary Johnson. Hell, Misty Snow, the trans natural food store cashier would be an improvement over Tump.
    Last edited by frank ryan; 04-18-2019 at 06:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    And they will probably do it anyway.
    Yes, impeach him! We want Mike "Not my Jesus" Pence to be our president.



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  8. #68

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    It's also come out in the report that Trump's deleted emails and other evidence impeding the investigation. Hardly a bunch of picked on and unfairly maligned angels.

    I wonder what the Grand Jury information that Barr didn't even bother to see if he could be clearance to release says.
    Last edited by frank ryan; 04-19-2019 at 02:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    It's also come out in the report that Trump's deleted emails and other evidence impeding the investigation. Hardly a bunch of picked on and unfairly maligned angels.

    I wonder what the Grand Jury information that Barr didn't even bother to see if he could be clearance to release says.
    OMG... deleted emails! How many? Like 31,000? Did he use bleach bit on his private email server in the basement of the Drumpf Tower?
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    lollygagger hostile's Avatar
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    Did the dem party come up with collusion as a scapegoat to Obama’s failure to intervene against Russia’s interference during his presidency?
    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/04/19/opi...www.cnn.com%2F
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  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by hostile View Post
    Did the dem party come up with collusion as a scapegoat to Obama’s failure to intervene against Russia’s interference during his presidency?
    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/04/19/opi...www.cnn.com%2F
    Russia never did anything so they didn't need a scapegoat, at least that was the origninal line spout by several folks on here.
    No one, including myself on here has disputed Obama's fecklessness on Russia. But speaking of all that, McConnell refused to make a bipartisan statement about Russian interence.
    What Trump and his cronies did and tried to do were separate, and no those concerns weren't to spare Obama from criticism.
    Last edited by frank ryan; 04-19-2019 at 05:59 PM.

  12. #72
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hostile View Post
    Did the dem party come up with collusion as a scapegoat to Obama’s failure to intervene against Russia’s interference during his presidency?
    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/04/19/opi...www.cnn.com%2F
    There’s certainly a lot of evidence that they did, although there was also smoke there so I don’t blame them for playing politics on it. It just looks really bad now and might hurt them next year.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  13. #73

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    Trump's Republican primary challenger calls him a 'one man crime wave' after Mueller report

    Former Massachusetts Gov Bill Weld, who is challenging President Donald Trump in the 2020 Republican primary, sounded off after the public release of the final report from the special counsel investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election....


    "This man is a one-man crime wave," Weld said in a statement. "He instructed senior legal officials, senior national security, senior intelligence officials to lie, he actively sought out and suborned perjury. That is obstruction of justice and the President is fortunate that in substance Bob Mueller gave him a mulligan"

    Weld also echoed Democrats in calling for a public hearing with Mueller to delve deeper into the special counsel's findings.

    "The last thing that Mr. Mueller said in the report was to charge the President you would need evidence of corrupt intent. What would be evidence of corrupt intent?" he said. "Well, if the President tried to limit or stop investigation of him or his family to avoid embarrassment or criminal exposure, that would be massive evidence of criminal intent. Well, that's exactly what the 60 previous pages of the report demonstrated."

    The Republican National Committee is sticking by Trump, choosing not to remain neutral in the GOP presidential primary.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...rce=reddit.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by hostile View Post
    Did the dem party come up with collusion as a scapegoat to Obama’s failure to intervene against Russia’s interference during his presidency?
    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/04/19/opi...www.cnn.com%2F

    IMG_1686.jpg
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    But I was told it was all true...

    Last edited by Uncle Ted; 12-09-2019 at 05:55 PM.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
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  16. #76
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    All Americans should be able to agree that James Comey is the villain here. He meddled in the 2016 election in ways that harmed both candidates—and he did it only for opportunism—for personal gain. Once again, the FBI is a dark element in American history, a threat to American democracy and civil rights.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/mueller...al-11553468801

    And when is Andrew McCabe going to be indicted for lying to the Department of Justice about leaking to the Wall Street Journal (I.e., his obstruction of justice)? Of course McCabe’s leaks hurt Hillary not Trump. And the leaks and McCabe’s lies about them are not disputed.
    Someone is getting nervous.

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  17. #77
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
    Almost everything you post is snarky, smug, condescending, or just downright mean-spirited. --Jeffrey Lebowski

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump
    You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

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    The Dems' spying on Americans is getting out of hand:

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
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  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    The Dems' spying on Americans is getting out of hand:

    Stop being crazy. You’ve read too many infowars staff’ tweets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Stop being crazy. You’ve read too many infowars staff’ tweets.
    Do you know what is crazy, Frank?

    We know now that dumbass Brennan lied to congress:

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
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  21. #81

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    The IG report found the investigation and was justified and found no political bias. I challenge you to stay away from twitter for two weeks, and read regular new sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    The IG report found the investigation and was justified and found no political bias. I challenge you to stay away from twitter for two weeks, and read regular new sources.
    Frank, you are missing the forest for all the trees...

    The IG Report Is a Huge Blow to the FBI's Credibility. Why Is It Being Treated Like Vindication?

    The Department of Justice's Office of the Inspector General released its highly anticipated report on the FBI's investigation of the Trump campaign's Russia connection on Monday.

    Make no mistake: The report chronicles serious wrongdoing with respect to the FBI's surveillance of Trump campaign advisor Carter Page, and is ultimately a damning indictment of the the nation's top law enforcement agency. All Americans should have serious concerns about the FBI's respect for constitutional principles, ability to carefully evaluate conflicting information, and its competency in general.
    [...]
    As Scott Shackford explained in his post on this subject, the report by Michael Horowitz found 17 "serious performance failures" relating to warrants obtained by the FBI through the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Amendment (FISA) courts for the purposes of monitoring Page. The FISA warrant, which was reauthorized three times, contained false and misleading information about Page. It omitted that he had previously disclosed his Russian contacts to a government agency; it overstated the government's confidence in the Christopher Steele dossier and ignored Steele's own doubts about one of his sources; it declined to mention that Page had said he and Paul Manafort had "literally never met"; and in general it ignored information that rendered unlikely the theory that Page was a Russian asset.

    These are alarming failures. They undercut the government's position that FISA courts are a sufficient guardian of Americans' civil liberties, and that the FBI is capable of responsibly exercising the vast powers granted to it. No one should feel confident that a court would block the FBI from engaging in surveillance, even if the information was flawed or faulty.
    [...]
    https://reason.com/2019/12/09/ig-rep...e-trump-media/

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    The FISA court needs to be shutdown for allowing spying on American citizens and the FBI needs to be gutted to restore its reputation.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  23. #83

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    Also Bob Barr is an embarrassment to public service. He's interested in running interference for Trump, and not serving his country. That's evidenced by his misrepresenting the findings of the Mueller report and the shenanigans he's pulling with the IG report.

    Also, having a philosophical problem with FISA courts and warrants etc, is a lot different from buying Trump's deluded victim stance perspective that he was illegally harassed by crooked FBI agents.

    Ted, notice how you only bitch about the government officials and agencies that Trump does?
    Last edited by frank ryan; 12-10-2019 at 11:29 AM.

  24. #84
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    What little I've read of the executive summary (who's got time to read it all?!?) I've come to the conclusion that neither side will get what they want from the IG report. It isn't the smoking gun that Trump says it is, showing that he's the subject of some conspiracy, and it isn't completely exculpatory of the FBI and their actions either.

    Which really, if I'm being honest with myself, is no big surprise. I've worked with law enforcement enough to know that they have no problem telling half-truths and lying to subjects of their investigation or interrogation. So it doesn't surprise me if they cut some corners or provided incomplete or inaccurate information in seeking the FISA warrants. Way too often the end justifies the means. And I have no trouble believing that Trump isn't completely clean of wrongdoing.

    This whole impeachment and the potential upcoming Senate trial should has been interesting so far. Put me in the camp of believing it's going to backfire on the Dems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Also Bob Barr is an embarrassment to public service. He's interested in running interference for Trump, and not serving his country. That's evidenced by his misrepresenting the findings of the Mueller report and the shenanigans he's pulling with the IG report.

    Also, having a philosophical problem with FISA courts and warrants etc, is a lot different from buying Trump's deluded victim stance perspective that he was illegally harassed by crooked FBI agents.

    Ted, notice how you only bitch about the government officials and agencies that Trump does?
    Frank, I have always bitched about the FBI... I have seen up close and in person how the sausage is made there.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  26. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    What little I've read of the executive summary (who's got time to read it all?!?) I've come to the conclusion that neither side will get what they want from the IG report. It isn't the smoking gun that Trump says it is, showing that he's the subject of some conspiracy, and it isn't completely exculpatory of the FBI and their actions either.

    Which really, if I'm being honest with myself, is no big surprise. I've worked with law enforcement enough to know that they have no problem telling half-truths and lying to subjects of their investigation or interrogation. So it doesn't surprise me if they cut some corners or provided incomplete or inaccurate information in seeking the FISA warrants. Way too often the end justifies the means. And I have no trouble believing that Trump isn't completely clean of wrongdoing.

    This whole impeachment and the potential upcoming Senate trial should has been interesting so far. Put me in the camp of believing it's going to backfire on the Dems.
    Not exactly, the IG report was clear on the primary points of concern: political bias and justification. They found errors and some mistakes.

    I don’t think they have a choice to do anything but impeach, regardless of political fallout. Trump’s behaviors are objectively egregious. You can’t ignore this shit. I think impeachment damages Trump. He may still win, but it won’t be because he is impeached. He’s also willing to do whatever he can, including solicit foreign help (that’s not in dispute) multiple times to get a leg up. Never underestimate a paranoid narcissist.

    Thanks for your take btw.

  27. #87
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Not exactly, the IG report was clear on the primary points of concern: political bias and justification. They found errors and some mistakes.
    Just curious - what do you mean by not exactly?

    I agree that the IG report was clear that they did not find political bias or that the investigation and FISA warrants were politically motivated as far as the FBI is concerned. That said - it does indicate that they should've been more clear about the Steele dossier and its origin - in particular the fact that it began as a politically driven investigation by Hillary and the DNC.

    But from what I understood from the parts that I read - and the piece I'm referring to above referring to the FBI's actions - the FBI didn't exactly follow the requirements in order to get the warrants. Which has me wondering if they would've gotten them in the first place if they HAD followed the requirements. I know that the impeachment trial isn't a criminal proceeding, but I can't help but wonder if the FBI's mistakes could've resulted in any information gathered as a result of the FISA warrant being thrown out anyway.

    Here's what I was referring to as the FBI not meeting requirements and/or following protocol - straight from the IG report:

    Our review found that FBI personnel fell far short of the requirement in FBI policy that they ensure that all factual statements in a FISA application are "scrupulously accurate." We identified multiple instances in which factual assertions relied upon in the first FISA application were inaccurate, incomplete, or unsupported by appropriate documentation, based upon information the FBI had in its possession at the time the application was filed. We found that the problems we identified were primarily caused by the Crossfire Hurricane team failing to share all relevant information with OI and, consequently, the information was not considered by the Department decision makers who ultimately decided to support the applications.
    This is on page viii of the executive summary. Just paraphrasing - it goes on to say that there were 7 significant inaccuracies or omissions (whether they were left inaccurate or omitted accidentally or on purpose - I have no idea):

    1 - Omitted info the FBI had received from another agency letting them know that Page had been approved as an "operational contact".

    2 - Overstated the significance of Steele's past reporting.

    3 - Omitted information relevant to the reliability of a key Steele sub-source.

    4 - Incorrectly assessed that Steele had not directly provided his information for a Yahoo News article (which I'm assuming was used as a secondary source/confirmation for the information, when it actually was just a repeat of the original source?)

    5 - Omitted Papadopoulos's "consensually monitored statement" that the Trump campaign was not collaborating with the Russians or with anyone at Wikileaks to release emails.

    6 - Omitted Page's "consensually monitored statements" that he had never met Manafort and that Manafort hadn't responded to any of his emails - contrary to the FBI theory that Page was a intermediary between Manafort and the Russians in some conspiracy.

    7 - Included "consensually monitored statements" by Page that the FBI thought supported their theory that he was a Russian agent, while omitting other statements Page made that did not support their theory.

    If that information had been included, would the FBI have been able to get their FISA warrant? Who knows - but that seems like some pretty significant information for a judge to consider in light of the allegations they were said to be investigating.

    Which isn't to say that Trump isn't what he is. That just supports my initial posting that the FBI is not entirely clean in their actions. This isn't just making a mistake or forgetting to fill out the right form. If the FBI is getting warrants to spy in people based on bad info - that's wrong.

    Obviously we can debate what should be done with the information they gained - which is a different discussion. But I don't want the FBI to be able to grab warrants based on inaccurate, incomplete, or unsupported information. That's just wrong.

  28. #88

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    Just curious - what do you mean by not exactly?

    I agree that the IG report was clear that they did not find political bias or that the investigation and FISA warrants were politically motivated as far as the FBI is concerned. That said - it does indicate that they should've been more clear about the Steele dossier and its origin - in particular the fact that it began as a politically driven investigation by Hillary and the DNC.
    Political bias and justification were the reasons the IG got involved. GOP concerns were invalidated. Steele was hired by political operatives, and I think a GOP rival hired him before the dems did, and I guess that's helpful for context, but doesn't speak to Steele's work, which despite what Ted/4chan/FoxNews tell you has held up pretty well.

    The IG report also showed that Steele and Ivanka have been casual friends for quite a while. That'll be conviently ignored by those who Trump as poor picked on martyr.

  29. #89
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Before any of you make sweeping assertions about what the IG report concluded and what that means you really ought to pay attention to it more carefully. Look at the methodology section at the beginning. You will see that the standard the IG applied was that if the FBI could offer any legal or discretionary reason for an act or conduct, regardless of whether that reason was the most likely or most plausible, they did not question it. They also made no evaluation of whether discretionary conduct was reasonable or could have been avoided or the desired result achieved in a better or less intrusive way. IOW, if the FBI could offer ANY explanation that was legal and acceptable, the IG accepted it uncritically. That is a very, very low bar and not at all the standard being used by the Judiciary Committee in its articles of impeachment. To the contrary, they are evaluating the president's conduct without considering his own explanation at all. If you accept Trump's positions, ignoring perhaps how poorly he often frames them, there would be no articles of impeachment. My point is that the IG report's conclusions are put in the very best possible light for the FBI and the DOJ. So when the IG does that and then still finds many unanswered questions and problems, I think it creates a lot of concerns.

    Here is what they say, in part:


    Our role in this review was not to second-guess
    discretionary judgments by Department personnel
    about whether to open an investigation, or specific
    judgment calls made during the course of an
    investigation, where those decisions complied with or
    were authorized by Department rules, policies, or
    procedures. We do not criticize particular decisions
    merely because we might have recommended a
    different investigative strategy or tactic based on the
    facts learned during our investigation. The question we
    considered was not whether a particular investigative
    decision was ideal or could have been handled more
    effectively, but rather whether the Department and the
    FBI complied with applicable legal requirements,
    policies, and procedures in taking the actions we
    reviewed or, alternatively, whether the circumstances
    surrounding the decision indicated that it was based on
    or incomplete information, or considerations
    other than the merits of t he investigation. If the
    explanations we were given for a particular decision
    were consistent with legal requirements, policies,
    procedures, and not unreasonable, we did not conclude
    that the decision was based on improper considerations
    in the absence of documentary or testimonial evidence
    to the contrary.
    https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  30. #90
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Before any of you make sweeping assertions about what the IG report concluded and what that means you really ought to pay attention to it more carefully. Look at the methodology section at the beginning. You will see that the standard the IG applied was that if the FBI could offer any legal or discretionary reason for an act or conduct, regardless of whether that reason was the most likely or most plausible, they did not question it. They also made no evaluation of whether discretionary conduct was reasonable or could have been avoided or the desired result achieved in a better or less intrusive way. IOW, if the FBI could offer ANY explanation that was legal and acceptable, the IG accepted it uncritically. That is a very, very low bar and not at all the standard being used by the Judiciary Committee in its articles of impeachment. To the contrary, they are evaluating the president's conduct without considering his own explanation at all. If you accept Trump's positions, ignoring perhaps how poorly he often frames them, there would be no articles of impeachment. My point is that the IG report's conclusions are put in the very best possible light for the FBI and the DOJ. So when the IG does that and then still finds many unanswered questions and problems, I think it creates a lot of concerns.
    Well, what exactly are the President's positions? It appears to me that he wanted to enlist a foreign government to provide campaign benefit to him personally. Not true? And he withheld tangible USG goods in order to get that foreign government to provide that benefit. Not true? That is impeachable to me.

    Or are you saying that the President would explain his positions differently? And that without that personal explanation, then we can't come to any real conclusions?
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

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