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Thread: Toxic -inity

  1. #1

    Default Toxic -inity

    There may be other threads where this is discussed, but I don't know of one where it's the main topic. Found in my Facebook feed today (from a nephew-in-law).

    The Real Problem With “Toxic Masculinity”

    All cultures actively promote different stereotypes and ideal types. Some cultural stories are nuanced, and others less so. Some are so simplified as to promote conspiracy theories. Some stereotypes are like mind viruses. Undernourished bodies become weak and vulnerable to infections. Undernourished minds are weak and vulnerable to mind viruses. All archetypes that promote crowd madness, witch-hunts, public hangings, and genocides are toxic.
    The next contradiction is harder to discern. In spite of its relativist claims, the culture of social justice actively promotes one kind of highly rigid morality about power, sex, and human relations. This moral story is then grounded in highly stereotyped models and ideal types of “identity.” All those who are not identified in the “cis-heteronormative white supremacist patriarchy,” then, get to leverage their “disempowered” identity status as a marker of virtue. This is an example of an overly simplistic, logically flawed, “superstitious” moral story.

    Toxic masculinity” (TM for shorts) is a highly salient, but awkwardly fitting feature in the conceptual architecture of this invisible contradiction. In the grander scheme of human structures of myth, TM is simply a worst-case ideal type: a fairy tale with some basis in biology and broad cross-cultural relevance. The TM myth serves the useful purpose of promoting socially desirable behavior among males — men shouldn’t be bullies, men shouldn’t rape. What healthy mind would disagree with that?


    In the current scheme of 21st-century feminist mythology, the TM story is also the Master Archetype in an archetype-hungry culture that pretends not to use archetypes.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    There may be other threads where this is discussed, but I don't know of one where it's the main topic. Found in my Facebook feed today (from a nephew-in-law).

    The Real Problem With “Toxic Masculinity”

    Sounds like Jordan Peterson stuff. The whole Jordan Peterson trying to borrow from Carl Jung thing is so weird to me. Carry on.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Sounds like Jordan Peterson stuff. The whole Jordan Peterson trying to borrow from Carl Jung thing is so weird to me. Carry on.
    He's obviously influenced by Peterson and others that think similarly. I would be more interested in engagement with the text of what was written rather than commenting on sources. Everyone has different interests, to each his own.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    He's obviously influenced by Peterson and others that think similarly. I would be more interested in engagement with the text of what was written rather than commenting on sources. Everyone has different interests, to each his own.
    But commenting on the source allows frank to dismiss it without even reading it. That’s SJW 101 stuff.
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    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    FWIW, the APA just issued first-ever guidelines for practice with men and boys. TM = Traditional Masculinity here.

    For the first time ever, APA is releasing guidelines to help psychologists work with men and boys.

    At first blush, this may seem unnecessary. For decades, psychology focused on men (particularly white men), to the exclusion of all others. And men still dominate professionally and politically: As of 2018, 95.2 percent of chief operating officers at Fortune 500 companies were men. According to a 2017 analysis by Fortune, in 16 of the top companies, 80 percent of all high-ranking executives were male. Meanwhile, the 115th Congress, which began in 2017, was 81 percent male.

    But something is amiss for men as well. Men commit 90 percent of homicides in the United States and represent 77 percent of homicide victims. They’re the demographic group most at risk of being victimized by violent crime. They are 3.5 times more likely than women to die by suicide, and their life expectancy is 4.9 years shorter than women’s. Boys are far more likely to be diagnosed with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder than girls, and they face harsher punishments in school—especially boys of color.

    APA’s new Guidelines for Psychological Practice With Boys and Men strive to recognize and address these problems in boys and men while remaining sensitive to the field’s androcentric past. Thirteen years in the making, they draw on more than 40 years of research showing that traditional masculinity is psychologically harmful and that socializing boys to suppress their emotions causes damage that echoes both inwardly and outwardly.

    [...]

    The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful. Men socialized in this way are less likely to engage in healthy behaviors.

    [...]

    It’s important to encourage pro-social aspects of masculinity, says McDermott. In certain circumstances, traits like stoicism and self-sacrifice can be absolutely crucial, he says. But the same tough demeanor that might save a soldier’s life in a war zone can destroy it at home with a romantic partner or child.

    The clinician’s role, McDermott says, can be to encourage men to discard the harmful ideologies of traditional masculinity (violence, sexism) and find flexibility in the potentially positive aspects (courage, leadership).
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  6. #6

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    some archetypes bad. some archetypes good.

    the end.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    FWIW, the APA just issued first-ever guidelines for practice with men and boys. TM = Traditional Masculinity here.
    Yes, then they issued a clarification:

    Division 51, the Society for the Psychological Study of Men and Masculinities of the American Psychological Association, supports all boys and men to live happy, constructive, and fulfilling lives. Masculinities are diverse and expressed in a wide range of ways.Courage, strength, bravery, compassion and self-compassion, leadership, vision, kindness, respect for others, gender equality, ambition, providing, protecting, intimacy, loyalty, social justice, friendship, and resilience are just a few qualities that promote healthy lives and social connections. When we report that some aspects of “traditional masculinity” are potentially harmful, we are referring to a belief system held by a few that associates masculinity with extreme behaviors that harm self and others. It is the extreme stereotypical behaviors—not simply being male or a “traditional male”—that may result in negative outcomes. For example, people who believe that to be a “real man” is to get needs met through violence, dominance over others, or extreme restriction of emotions are at risk for poor physical, psychological, and social outcomes (e.g., increased risk for cardiovascular disease, social isolation, depression relationship distress, etc.).

    When a man believes that he must be successful no matter who is harmed or his masculinity is expressed by being sexually abusive, disrespectful, and harmful to others, that man is conforming to the negative aspects associated with traditional masculinity.

    The APA Guidelines for the Psychological Practice with Boys and Men and mission of Division 51 encourage masculinities that express positive manhood. We believe that most boys and men aspire to live within a connected and caring view of life. We honor and respect the overwhelmingly majority of boys and men who aim to live fully human lives while valuing the dignity of all others. In short, Division 51 of the American Psychological Association believes the following:

    Division 51 seeks to recognize and promote pathways for boys and men to live healthy and positive lives, and also to identify and redress the effects of restrictive masculinities. We do this through psychological science, education, advocacy, and clinical practice. In doing so, we aim to promote equality for people of all genders.

    Respectfully,

    Dr. Edward Adams (2018 President)
    Dr. Ryan McKelley (2019 President)

    Dr. Wizdom Powell (2020 President)
    It was very nice of them to point out it's not nice to be a psychopath. The world has been wondering about that.
    Last edited by swampfrog; 01-21-2019 at 10:09 PM. Reason: font size

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    some archetypes bad. some archetypes good.

    the end.
    That's an accurate summary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Yes, then they issued a clarification:



    It was very nice of them to point out it's not nice to be a psychopath. The world has been wondering about that.
    Yeah, WTF?

    When a man believes that he must be successful no matter who is harmed or his masculinity is expressed by being sexually abusive, disrespectful, and harmful to others, that man is conforming to the negative aspects associated with traditional masculinity.
    When did being sexually abusive, disrespectful, and harmful to others become aspects of masculinity? Two of the three are likely criminal.

    Hmmmm, how would this fly?

    When a woman believes that she must be successful no matter who is harmed or her femininity is expressed by being psychologically abusive, disrespectful, and harmful to others, that woman is conforming to the negative aspects associated with traditional femininity.
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    FWIW, the APA just issued first-ever guidelines for practice with men and boys. TM = Traditional Masculinity here.
    lol. What a bunch of pussies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Sounds like Jordan Peterson stuff. The whole Jordan Peterson trying to borrow from Carl Jung thing is so weird to me. Carry on.
    I've read a dozen of Jung's books, and Jung is a genius. That's not a term I use lightly.

    Peterson is a Jungian psychologist. Why wouldn't he quote Jung?
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

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    In the bigger picture, a legitimate men's movement is underway.
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ View Post
    In the bigger picture, a legitimate men's movement is underway.
    Not being snarky I'd be interested in hearing more about what you mean by this.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    Not being snarky I'd be interested in hearing more about what you mean by this.
    The Gillette commercial bro.
    "Nobody listens to Turtle."
    -Turtle

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ View Post
    I've read a dozen of Jung's books, and Jung is a genius. That's not a term I use lightly.

    Peterson is a Jungian psychologist. Why wouldn't he quote Jung?
    I like Jung a lot. I'm puzzled that Peterson has used Jung the way he has. Jung wasn't conventional, he didn't believe in the supremecy of the Western Myth. I don't think Jung would have come to the same conclucions Peterson did. If Jung were alive today I think he would be dismissed by someone like Peterson (Jung used astrological charts to help his patients).

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    Not being snarky I'd be interested in hearing more about what you mean by this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfah View Post
    The Gillette commercial bro.
    Rebel Wisdom:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnWB8_HPHkY&t=916s

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...linity-retreat

    Benjamin Boyce (former student of Bret Weinstein)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSqrQ_alOF4

    Jordan Peterson as father figure

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/...father-figure/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvYrrexNKyI

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfah View Post
    The Gillette commercial bro.
    I don't get what the outrage was with the Gillette commercial. Sure it was a bit of corporate virtue signaling, but it was essentially 'don't be a dick.'

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    I don't get what the outrage was with the Gillette commercial. Sure it was a bit of corporate virtue signaling, but it was essentially 'don't be a dick.'
    Yeah, I don't get it either, man... I love their ads:

    2qkb7itt97b21.jpg
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    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Yeah, I don't get it either, man... I love their ads:

    2qkb7itt97b21.jpg
    Don't be a dick, Ted.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    I don't get what the outrage was with the Gillette commercial. Sure it was a bit of corporate virtue signaling, but it was essentially 'don't be a dick.'
    From the article linked in the OP:

    The next contradiction is harder to discern. In spite of its relativist claims, the culture of social justice actively promotes one kind of highly rigid morality about power, sex, and human relations. This moral story is then grounded in highly stereotyped models and ideal types of “identity.” All those who are not identified in the “cis-heteronormative white supremacist patriarchy,” then, get to leverage their “disempowered” identity status as a marker of virtue. This is an example of an overly simplistic, logically flawed, “superstitious” moral story.

    “Toxic masculinity” (TM for shorts) is a highly salient, but awkwardly fitting feature in the conceptual architecture of this invisible contradiction. In the grander scheme of human structures of myth, TM is simply a worst-case ideal type: a fairy tale with some basis in biology and broad cross-cultural relevance. The TM myth serves the useful purpose of promoting socially desirable behavior among males — men shouldn’t be bullies, men shouldn’t rape. What healthy mind would disagree with that?
    The problem is that in the greater cultural context, where the traditionally positive aspects of masculinity are being disparaged, the Gillette ad comes off preachy. The Rebel Wisdom video I linked above does a decent job of exploring this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnWB8_HPHkY&t=916s

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    ..the Gillette ad comes off preachy.
    lol. That's about as good an explanation as I've heard. I'll skip the 30-minute video further expounding the point.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    lol. That's about as good an explanation as I've heard. I'll skip the 30-minute video further expounding the point.
    There's more to it than that of course. I found it to be an excellent use of 30 minutes to gain greater understanding of the context surrounding a polarizing cultural event. I must have misunderstood the intent of, "I don't understand the outrage..."

  23. #23

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    Why is this in the foyer?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Why is this in the foyer?
    The mods are too lazy to move it?
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
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    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Why is this in the foyer?
    Because that's where I participated in similar conversations, but you're right it doesn't really belong here.

  26. #26

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    Mods please move this thread if appropriate.

    This article could belong here, or in one of the threads currently discussing the events that occurred at the Lincoln Memorial. Both are intertwined here.

    https://www.city-journal.org/toxic-m...nity-covington

    It's just further analysis. I'm likely to mostly withdraw from the ongoing conversations regarding both topics. If I run across interesting articles I will still post links.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    I like Jung a lot. I'm puzzled that Peterson has used Jung the way he has. Jung wasn't conventional, he didn't believe in the supremecy of the Western Myth. I don't think Jung would have come to the same conclucions Peterson did. If Jung were alive today I think he would be dismissed by someone like Peterson (Jung used astrological charts to help his patients).
    I can see how you could come to such a view of Peterson, but I think Peterson is more authentically Jungian than you're giving him credit for. Peterson is publically addressing himself to a very Jungian problem--a lack of initiation and ritual, over-identification with persona, and the consequences of such--he's just doing it by addressing the Western culture he lives in. Jung himself does quite a bit of this in The Undiscovered Self.

    Peterson has had a private practice with clients, and he sometimes gives examples of dream interpretation and synchronicity. That sort of thing just doesn't come up when he's discussing collective and cultural factors.

    Jung's famous interest in the paranormal comes from the collapse of the subject-object distinction between complexes and archetypes. He didn't actually believe that starlight was magical, rather that the internal and external had synchronous (a-causal) relationships, and that symbols such as those in astrology open the doors between the internal psyche and the collective unconscious.

    For anyone wondering how Joseph Smith Jr. could look into some rocks and see images, Jung has a plausible answer.
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    Not being snarky I'd be interested in hearing more about what you mean by this.
    I'll say more when I have time, but there's much, much more going on than just a reaction to a commercial.
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    I don't get what the outrage was with the Gillette commercial. Sure it was a bit of corporate virtue signaling, but it was essentially 'don't be a dick.'
    pretty much
    Dyslexics are teople poo...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ View Post
    I can see how you could come to such a view of Peterson, but I think Peterson is more authentically Jungian than you're giving him credit for. Peterson is publically addressing himself to a very Jungian problem--a lack of initiation and ritual, over-identification with persona, and the consequences of such--he's just doing it by addressing the Western culture he lives in. Jung himself does quite a bit of this in The Undiscovered Self.


    Jung's famous interest in the paranormal comes from the collapse of the subject-object distinction between complexes and archetypes. He didn't actually believe that starlight was magical, rather that the internal and external had synchronous (a-causal) relationships, and that symbols such as those in astrology open the doors between the internal psyche and the collective unconscious.

    For anyone wondering how Joseph Smith Jr. could look into some rocks and see images, Jung has a plausible answer.
    Here are some Jungian clinicians discussing how things like astrology, I Ching, Tarot, and Urim and Thummim can be windows into the psyche (much like Rorschach ink blots). Of course, Quinn's Mormonism and the Magic World View is highly relevant to this discussion....

    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

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