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  • We shouldn’t complain when a person or an organization does the right thing. It sends the wrong message.

    Kudos to the church.

    Confucius said that only the wisest and the stupidest never change.

    I think it matters that Oaks read the message.
    He has had some hardliner messages on this type of topic.
    "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
    -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

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    • Originally posted by Solon View Post
      We shouldn’t complain when a person or an organization does the right thing. It sends the wrong message.

      Kudos to the church.

      Confucius said that only the wisest and the stupidest never change.

      I think it matters that Oaks read the message.
      He has had some hardliner messages on this type of topic.
      TK2 texted me and said that it means more to her, coming from him, than it would have if it had come from anyone else.

      Comment


      • I think one of the things I like about all of this is that this change erodes the notion that the Big 15 are necessarily out-of-touch old dudes. They certainly have biases based on their age and background (true of all of us), but if you look at the institutional progress on homosexuality in the last decade, these crusty, old, straight, conservative, white dudes are more dynamic than they get credit/blamed for.
        Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

        "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

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        • Originally posted by The_Tick View Post
          TK2 texted me and said that it means more to her, coming from him, than it would have if it had come from anyone else.
          Even if it wasn't intentional, that's good to hear your daughter took comfort from that.
          "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
          "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
          - SeattleUte

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Green Monstah View Post
            I think one of the things I like about all of this is that this change erodes the notion that the Big 15 are necessarily out-of-touch old dudes. They certainly have biases based on their age and background (true of all of us), but if you look at the institutional progress on homosexuality in the last decade, these crusty, old, straight, conservative, white dudes are more dynamic than they get credit/blamed for.
            I have no concerns with old, straight, conservative white dudes making changes. My concern is when they state the changes were made by direct divine guidance, yea, even the Will of the Lord, and then they walk them back.

            Originally posted by RMN, GOAT
            The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together and share all the Lord has directed us to understand and to feel individually and collectively. And then we watch the Lord move upon the President of the Church to proclaim the Lord’s will.

            This prophetic process was followed in 2012 with the change in minimum age for missionaries and again with the recent additions to the Church’s handbook, consequent to the legalization of same-sex marriage in some countries. Filled with compassion for all, and especially for the children, we wrestled at length to understand the Lord’s will in this matter. Ever mindful of God’s plan of salvation and of His hope for eternal life for each of His children, we considered countless permutations and combinations of possible scenarios that could arise. We met repeatedly in the temple in fasting and prayer and sought further direction and inspiration. And then, when the Lord inspired His prophet, President Thomas S. Monson, to declare the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord, each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation. It was our privilege as Apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson.
            https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/artic...V56CxTm2NMX7GQ

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Solon View Post
              We shouldn’t complain when a person or an organization does the right thing. It sends the wrong message.
              When are we allowed to complain? Since I joined the Church, I've never had another Mormon, especially a leader, ask me for my negative opinion, save the branch president in NOLA.
              "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

              Comment


              • Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
                When are we allowed to complain? Since I joined the Church, I've never had another Mormon, especially a leader, ask me for my negative opinion, save the branch president in NOLA.
                Maybe they never saw the need to ask for it because you were constantly giving it anyway.
                "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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                • Originally posted by LVAllen View Post
                  I have no concerns with old, straight, conservative white dudes making changes. My concern is when they state the changes were made by direct divine guidance, yea, even the Will of the Lord, and then they walk them back.



                  https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/artic...V56CxTm2NMX7GQ
                  So, nothing should ever be walked back ... isn't that the purpose of direct divine guidance?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tooblue View Post
                    So, nothing should ever be walked back ... isn't that the purpose of direct divine guidance?
                    I think his point is it’s weird the Divine changes it’s mind on ‘important’ things.

                    The purpose of having a God directed church (in the Mormon sense not Christiananity writ large) is that in practice these things shouldn’t happen. God shouldn’t direct that kids of gays are unwelcome and a couple years later say jk.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by fusnik View Post
                      I think his point is it’s weird the Divine changes it’s mind on ‘important’ things.

                      The purpose of having a God directed church (in the Mormon sense not Christiananity writ large) is that in practice these things shouldn’t happen. God shouldn’t direct that kids of gays are unwelcome and a couple years later say jk.
                      According to Mormon theology, the point is these things must happen. They are a consequence of agency in the context of a mortal existence. Otherwise what was the point of the fall?

                      Does the divine change his mind, or do the minds of his children change as they progress and grow in knowledge and understanding?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tooblue View Post
                        According to Mormon theology, the point is these things must happen. They are a consequence of agency in the context of a mortal existence. Otherwise what was the point of the fall?

                        Does the divine change his mind, or do the minds of his children change as they progress and grow in knowledge and understanding?
                        What in the hell does your first paragraph mean?

                        In this example are you saying that God was ok with kids of gays in church it was the leadership who had to grow into that position?

                        That’s fine if you believe that just don’t say god directed the first policy. Say we thought we had it right but we didn’t, we apologize and we evolve and might change again in the future.

                        Invoking the divine on these changes is a huge reason why people under 40 don’t go to church anymore, that and swinging.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                          Maybe they never saw the need to ask for it because you were constantly giving it anyway.
                          The question stands, Dude.
                          "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by fusnik View Post
                            What in the hell does your first paragraph mean?

                            In this example are you saying that God was ok with kids of gays in church it was the leadership who had to grow into that position?

                            That’s fine if you believe that just don’t say god directed the first policy. Say we thought we had it right but we didn’t, we apologize and we evolve and might change again in the future.

                            Invoking the divine on these changes is a huge reason why people under 40 don’t go to church anymore, that and swinging.
                            All I know is that God is OK with the choice that is now being made. That's exciting to me, because it bolsters my faith in direct divine guidance.

                            People under 40 who don't go to church are exclusively responsible for their choice not to go to church. Certainly, others actions can factor into and even help them make that choice, but the actions of others in and of themselves are not the reason they choose not to go to church. All people have agency, or the freedom to make choices for themselves. That is a condition of the fall.
                            Last edited by tooblue; 04-04-2019, 05:17 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tooblue View Post
                              All I know is that God is OK with the choice that is now being made. That's exciting to me, because it bolsters my faith in direct diving guidance.

                              People under 40 who don't go to church are exclusively responsible for their choice not to go to church. Certainly, others actions can factor into and even help them make that choice, but the actions of others in and of themselves are not the reason they choose not to go to church. All people have agency, or the freedom to make choices for themselves. That is a condition of the fall.
                              I disagree somewhat with your second paragraph. I believe others' actions can reach a tipping point in actively driving people away from attending church. I have someone close to me who chooses not to attend because of rejection they received at a critical time. Only one person is truly qualified to judge the heart.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
                                Like other policies I've recently commented on, this change in "policy" (which went against our doctrine, mind you) will end a lot of heartache and needless suffering. I'm glad this happened today, but I'm sad that we had to have this in the first place. I'm guessing that with a lot more fervent prayer, the Lord will change His mind on "lawfully wedded" spouses of either gender being alright with Him. Unlike Schopenhauer, I like an omniscient god who you have to convince to change His Will.
                                If he's omniscient you wouldn't be able to change his mind on anything, unless he was not purely good.

                                Besides, you are imputing what his servants, who at best see His will through a glass darkly (but for those rare times he chooses to reveal it clearly), choose as being completely and perfectly consonant with His will. I think the pattern of practice is pretty clear that it is not how it works.
                                PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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