Originally posted by swampfrog
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostThe church announces that they are making a specific effort to reduce emphasis on numbers. So rather than celebrate that positive change, our primary response is being upset that they aren't sufficiently apologetic and forthright about past practices?
What a time to be alive.
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostThe church announces that they are making a specific effort to reduce emphasis on numbers. So rather than celebrate that positive change, our primary response is being upset that they aren't sufficiently apologetic and forthright about past practices?
What a time to be alive.
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostThe church announces that they are making a specific effort to reduce emphasis on numbers. So rather than celebrate that positive change, our primary response is being upset that they aren't sufficiently apologetic and forthright about past practices?
What a time to be alive.
However, this line in the original article is significant:
Such a culture can ultimately hurt the faith of the missionaries who may return home feeling guilty for their actions in this regard.
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Originally posted by swampfrog View PostAs an engineer, I'm a root cause guy. Institutional learning is fascinating to me. This has happened before. It was believed to be fixed, but the institution went down the same path again. How is that prevented? I don't have any expectation or need for an apology. How I deal with my experience is on me. I understand the guilty pleasure of victimhood is not an answer.
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostThe church announces that they are making a specific effort to reduce emphasis on numbers. So rather than celebrate that positive change, our primary response is being upset that they aren't sufficiently apologetic and forthright about past practices?
What a time to be alive.Last edited by Green Monstah; 07-17-2019, 10:51 AM.Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.
"Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson
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Originally posted by swampfrog View PostAs an engineer, I'm a root cause guy. Institutional learning is fascinating to me. This has happened before. It was believed to be fixed, but the institution went down the same path again. How is that prevented? I don't have any expectation or need for an apology. How I deal with my experience is on me. I understand the guilty pleasure of victimhood is not an answer.
However, this line in the original article is significant:
Some missionaries bought into it, some didn't. But potential guilt exists either way. Lasater came with fire and brimstone as the consequences of non-compliance. It's the type of guilt with long term and far reaching implications. What is that best path to mitigate the unnecessary guilt? What is the responsibility of the institution? What is the personal responsibility? These aren't simple cut and dry questions.
There is no mechanism available to mitigate how any individual might react to any given situation. Guilt is a deeply personal emotional reaction, and it is perilous—as we read in other threads on this site, where there are links posted to research centred on the inefficacy of trigger warnings—to summarily state in can be done, and it's only a matter of learning from our past that will make that happen.
Isn't the statement a clear indication that there are concerted attempts to learn from the past, and should we not praise the efforts in place of lamenting how quickly and effectively it is being learned. What is really being asked is for a change in human nature to occur, and quite evidently and in fairness to all of the human individuals involved, that takes time.Last edited by tooblue; 07-17-2019, 10:58 AM.
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Originally posted by Green Monstah View PostI think everyone is happy with the decision. But as a sidenote, it's weird that whoever approved this press release felt the need to be defensive and exculpate the church for a phenomenon it was fully aware of and codified in the 1986-2005 Missionary Discussions. Don't you think that's weird?"There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostKind of weird, but aren't we talking about one line in the article? Could it be that this was an unrehearsed statement by Ballard and not some overt strategy by the church? Is it that big of a deal?Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.
"Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson
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Originally posted by Green Monstah View PostNo, but it seems like there is often some sort of exculpatory statement when the church changes course. The people I respect most professionally take risks and own those risks--whether the outcome is good or bad. When the church goes out of its way to make it clear that its hands are clean when they're not (and they're most certainly not innocent in this instance), it erodes the church's credibility and reminds me of that asshole fingerpointer in the company. Everyone hates that guy.
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostKind of weird, but aren't we talking about one line in the article? Could it be that this was an unrehearsed statement by Ballard and not some overt strategy by the church? Is it that big of a deal?PLesa excuse the tpyos.
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Originally posted by creekster View PostIt isnt that big of a deal, in my mind, but it does seem to interest people here and, tbh, it is hard for me to believe that the church, as an organization, was wholly unaware of the implementation of the specific policies in question. OTOH, I am not sure that this is the church being disingenuous as much as it is the leadership saying there is no basis to condemn anyone for this; it sort of happened and developed out of well-intended purposes, which are listed. The church prefers the focus be on the change and not the blame, which is obviously the more helpful and healthy way to look at this."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Green Monstah View PostNo, but it seems like there is often some sort of exculpatory statement when the church changes course. The people I respect most professionally take risks and own those risks--whether the outcome is good or bad. When the church goes out of its way to make it clear that its hands are clean when they're not (and they're most certainly not innocent in this instance), it erodes the church's credibility and reminds me of that asshole fingerpointer in the company. Everyone hates that guy.PLesa excuse the tpyos.
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Originally posted by tooblue View PostYour statement overall is a leap, but can ask: isn't that exactly what you are asking for—someone to point a finger at ... are you not in fact a finger pointer here on this subject?Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.
"Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson
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Spoiler alert: This practice is going to continue to pop up from time to time in the future. Human nature."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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