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Thread: "Hold my root beer" - the Russell M. Nelson thread

  1. #1081

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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post
    Since we're talking here - can somebody tell me what a queer is? The mystery Q. I got the L, G, B, and T .... but I don't really understand the definition of a queer. What do they do that's so special they get their own letter.
    <redacted>

  2. #1082
    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
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    Our ward had youth temple night last night, and the guy running the baptistry told my daughter that she was the first female witness of proxy baptisms in the San Antonio temple. Kind of cool.
    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

    "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

  3. #1083

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Oy vey!
    For every step forward, there is at least one step back. You say there is progress, but this stuff makes me question if that is really true.

    To be clear though, I do think there is a benefit to the clear line drawing like this rather than being vague. It is better to be open and direct about the church's believes, rather than vague about it.
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

  4. #1084
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    For every step forward, there is at least one step back. You say there is progress, but this stuff makes me question if that is really true.

    To be clear though, I do think there is a benefit to the clear line drawing like this rather than being vague. It is better to be open and direct about the church's believes, rather than vague about it.
    Yeesh.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  5. #1085

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yeesh.
    Do you disagree that this is a step backwards?

    Do you disagree that the church should just come out and state their beliefs. None of what Oaks said is really all that surprising. The church has acted like this was the doctrine for years without just saying it in no uncertain terms. I think it is better for them to just be upfront.
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

  6. #1086
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Do you disagree that this is a step backwards?

    Do you disagree that the church should just come out and state their beliefs. None of what Oaks said is really all that surprising. The church has acted like this was the doctrine for years without just saying it in no uncertain terms. I think it is better for them to just be upfront.
    Funk, I think you are incapable of processing this stuff with any level of nuance, fair-mindedness, and objectivity, so I am not going to debate it with you. Please keep posting. I suppose it is healthy to have the bitter ex-mo take on things. I am just not interested in engaging anymore. SJBH.

    FTR, I am not defending Oaks here. Speaking of church-related topics in general.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  7. #1087
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Do you disagree that this is a step backwards?

    Do you disagree that the church should just come out and state their beliefs. None of what Oaks said is really all that surprising. The church has acted like this was the doctrine for years without just saying it in no uncertain terms. I think it is better for them to just be upfront.
    It doesn't seem to be a step at all. I didn't see anything in President Oaks' comments that wasn't already known by every member of the Church for years. What, exactly, are you concerned about as a step "backward"?
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  8. #1088
    Local Character clackamascoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    The way you are asking this question comes off as really insincere, so I wouldn't expect a sincere response.
    So... you don't know either, and all I'm left with is your queer response.

    When poet puts pen to paper imagination breathes life, finding hearth and home.
    -Mid Summer's Night Dream


  9. #1089

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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post
    So... you don't know either, and all I'm left with is your queer response.
    Yes I know what I means.
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

  10. #1090
    Senior Member Katy Lied's Avatar
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    Read this job description for which TheBrethren are hiring.

    Purposes

    Strategy development work to maximize efficiencies in the organization . This role will have significant responsibility and ownership for a variety of challenging strategic projects and will work closely with senior executives. These projects range from early-stage diagnostic and strategy development to wide scale testing and implementation. Analyzes internal data to identify organizational weaknesses and subsequently formulates solutions to address them. Works with organization leadership to improve business strategies and results.


    Results Delivery Office has a team of ex-consultants and strategic managers that support Presiding Bishopric projects. This team is currently leading a global transformative organizational and operational redesign project, with initial pilots in Latin America and Asia, targeted to fundamentally reshape the organization of all Presiding Bishopric departments in international areas and the functions of the headquarters offices in supporting Church growth worldwide. After the pilots, the strategic learning will be scaled to all 14 international areas. The Results Delivery Office supprts other Presiding Bishopric needs and will continue to support emerging Presiding Bishopric priorities


    nontech123


    Responsibilities
    Works with organizations to improve business strategies and results. Identifying essential work in the organization and how to provide those services in the most simple and affordable way.
    Works cooperatively with team members, directors, and the managing director. Provides guidance and direction on initiative planning, client relationship management
    Primary responsibility will be typical of a strategy engagement: identifying opportunities through hypotheses, data driven analysis, and research, collaborating with senior leaders, determining highest impact changes, presenting findings to senior management and/or General Authorities, and implementing solutions.
    Strategic project management is critical, which includes shaping workstreams, leading project teams drawn from the wider department, and ensuring delivery of results.
    While I am impressed by the professionalism, I wonder where the inspiration is coming from. Or is it inspiration that inspires the professionalism?

  11. #1091
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    Read this job description for which TheBrethren are hiring.



    While I am impressed by the professionalism, I wonder where the inspiration is coming from. Or is it inspiration that inspires the professionalism?
    That job description is for the "studying it out" part of inspiration...

    7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

    8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

  12. #1092
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

  13. #1093
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Without reading the proposed bill or knowing much about it - this doesn't surprise me at all.

    And I don't say that because I think the church wants to continue to use electric probs to shock people into being sexually attracted to the right people.

    But I'll bet they have concerns that if there is a kid who fits the Q part of LGBTQ (which, for some people still stands for "questioning") - what can a professional do or not do in working with that child?

    I believe there is a continuum. Meaning that some people are on the WAY heterosexual end of the spectrum and other people are on the WAY homosexual end of he spectrum. But I believe that as you get to the middle parts - there is some ambiguity. Which leads to some people being bi-sexual, and some people being unsure if they're more attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex.

    So if someone says they aren't sure what they are or who they are attracted to sexually, but would prefer not to be gay, what kind of limitations does this put on the person providing counseling? Will they get in trouble if they're exploring this with the kid? I have no idea what someone in that position does - but if it leans towards "here's stuff you can do to strengthen one side or another" - does that end up illegal? I'm doing a horrible job of expressing what I mean - but hopefully this makes sense somehow.

  14. #1094

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    Without reading the proposed bill or knowing much about it - this doesn't surprise me at all.

    And I don't say that because I think the church wants to continue to use electric probs to shock people into being sexually attracted to the right people.

    But I'll bet they have concerns that if there is a kid who fits the Q part of LGBTQ (which, for some people still stands for "questioning") - what can a professional do or not do in working with that child?

    I believe there is a continuum. Meaning that some people are on the WAY heterosexual end of the spectrum and other people are on the WAY homosexual end of he spectrum. But I believe that as you get to the middle parts - there is some ambiguity. Which leads to some people being bi-sexual, and some people being unsure if they're more attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex.

    So if someone says they aren't sure what they are or who they are attracted to sexually, but would prefer not to be gay, what kind of limitations does this put on the person providing counseling? Will they get in trouble if they're exploring this with the kid? I have no idea what someone in that position does - but if it leans towards "here's stuff you can do to strengthen one side or another" - does that end up illegal? I'm doing a horrible job of expressing what I mean - but hopefully this makes sense somehow.
    Here is the text of the rule

    7.18.19 FINAL DRAFT APPROVED BY LICENSING BOARD
    R156-61-102. Definitions.
    In addition to the definitions in Title 58, Chapters 1 and 61, as used in Title 58, Chapters 1 and
    61 or this rule: . ..

    (11) “Gender expression” means an individual's presentation and behaviors that express aspects of gender. including gender identity or gender role.
    (12) “Gender identity” means an individual’s experience of their gender, including one’s view of oneself as a man, woman, or any other gender.
    [13) "Sexual orientation” means an individual?s gendered patterns in attraction and behavior, identity related to these patterns, and associated components.
    [14} “Sexual orientation change efforts” means methods, practices, procedures, or techniques with the goal of changing an individual’s sexual orientation or any of its components, including gendered patterns in attraction or behavior and identities related to these patterns.
    (15) “Gender identity change efforts” means methods, practices, procedures, or techniques with the goal of changing an individual's gender identity, gender expression, or any of the associated components of these.
    (16) The terms “sexual orientation change efforts” and “gender identity change efforts” do not include methods, practices, procedures, or techniques that:
    (a) do not have the goal of changing an individual’s sexual orientation or gender identity; and
    (b) have any of the following goals:
    (i) reducing an individual?s internalized stigma;
    (ii) providing acceptance, support, and comprehensive assessment of an individual;
    (iii) facilitating an individual’s active coping, social support, and identity exploration and development;
    (iv) assisting an individual undergoing gender transition; or
    (v) preventing or addressing an individual's unlawful conduct or unsafe sexual practices in a manner that is neutral with respect to the sexual orientation and gender identity of the individual.
    R156-61-502. Unprofessional Conduct.
    "Unprofessional conduct" includes: . . .

    (23) engaging in or attempting to engage in the practice of sexual orientation change efforts or gender identity change efforts with a client who is less than 18 years old.
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

  15. #1095
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    How long did funk's "I will no longer make posts about the church" vow last? 2 days?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  16. #1096

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    I agree that the LDS church has no desire to see gay people changed by hooking up electrodes to their genitals and administering shocks. They realized that didn't work and moved on.

    I don't think a therapist should be convincing a bisexual person to be straight. No therapy is going to be effective doing that. You aren't going to change someone's orientation. I think the rule as written absolutely allows a therapist to help a bisexual person come to terms with and accept their orientation. It could even allow for the therapist to assist the person with resolving conflicts between sexuality and religion, including focusing on opposite sex relationships. What it doesn't allow a therapist to do is to help the minor become straight or push the person to be one sexuality or the other. I think a therapist that wants to convince a kid that he or she is straight and can ignore bisexuality is engaging in abusive therapeutic practices.

    I think though the church's opposition is more directed to the gender identify portion of this rule. I think you take that out and the church is completely supportive of the rule.

    By the way, go fuck yourself Gayle Ruzicka.
    Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 10-16-2019 at 04:31 PM.
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

  17. #1097

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    How long did funk's "I will no longer make posts about the church" vow last? 2 days?
    Yeah sorry, this is a notable exception, because I think people need to know that this opposition is out there. I'm not gonna comment past my recent post on this one. I would be interested in your thoughts on this opposition as someone who is both active LDS and supportive of the LGBTQ community.
    Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 10-16-2019 at 04:32 PM.
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

  18. #1098
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Yeah sorry, this is a notable exception, because I think people need to know that this opposition is out there. I'm not gonna comment past my recent post on this one. I will not disturb your echo chamber further.
    Knock it off. I never asked you to stop posting.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  19. #1099

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Knock it off. I never asked you to stop posting.
    The echo chamber comment was unfair and I removed it. You are no El Jefe and this is no cougarboard.
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

  20. #1100
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be surprised if the concerns I expressed are still the concerns the LDS church has - in spite of your belief that it shouldn't be.

    I'd prefer Mrs. Ruzika just retire from political action activities. If she replaces them with your suggestion - or something else - is entirely up to her.

  21. #1101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the concerns I expressed are still the concerns the LDS church has - in spite of your belief that it shouldn't be.

    I'd prefer Mrs. Ruzika just retire from political action activities. If she replaces them with your suggestion - or something else - is entirely up to her.
    I think everyone on here can agree a world without Mrs. Ruzika's political action activities is a better world.
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

  22. #1102
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    The echo chamber comment was unfair and I removed it. You are no El Jefe and this is no cougarboard.
    I shouldn't have teased you for breaking your vow. You post on whatever topic you like.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  23. #1103
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I shouldn't have teased you for breaking your vow. You post on whatever topic you like.
    Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

  24. #1104
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I shouldn't have teased you for breaking your vow. You post on whatever topic you like.
    Hey, we had a brokered deal here! Maybe I'll go back on my vow too.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  25. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Yeah sorry, this is a notable exception, because I think people need to know that this opposition is out there. I'm not gonna comment past my recent post on this one. I would be interested in your thoughts on this opposition as someone who is both active LDS and supportive of the LGBTQ community.
    Thanks for clarifying. I was definitely wondering how you would come out on this issue.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  26. #1106

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    I don't want anyone to get conversion-therapy, but the idea of government non-experts legislating medical / psychological treatment is very troubling to me.

    My inexpert opinion is that conversion therapy is a terrible thing with terrible outcomes, but this type of debate needs to be left to the scientists and professionals and experts - not legislators. The professional bodies that license and regulate and certify counseling/therapy/etc. should be in charge here.

    The LDS church and Gayle R. may be using this argument for religious purposes rather than scientific ones, but I think they are on the right side of the debate this time.
    "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
    -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

  27. #1107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    I don't want anyone to get conversion-therapy, but the idea of government non-experts legislating medical / psychological treatment is very troubling to me.

    My inexpert opinion is that conversion therapy is a terrible thing with terrible outcomes, but this type of debate needs to be left to the scientists and professionals and experts - not legislators. The professional bodies that license and regulate and certify counseling/therapy/etc. should be in charge here.

    The LDS church and Gayle R. may be using this argument for religious purposes rather than scientific ones, but I think they are on the right side of the debate this time.
    The current rules are being put out by the Department of Professional Licensing, so it is the experts in the field.

    The complaints of Gayle are partially the legislature should do this and well that she wants gay kids abused to "fix" them.

    The progress of this is the legislature proposed changes. It died after the Eagle forum and Gayle got involved. It got gutted so much the bills sponsor pulled it. The governor then told DOPL to propose a Rule administratively.
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

  28. #1108
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Why ban conversion therapy? Why not just ban it for minors and regulate advertising around it? If I’m an adult and I want to go through conversion therapy at my own cost, why can’t I do that? There are a multitude of things we allow people to do to themselves that are harmful or ineffective or both and we aren’t outright banning those. I mean, let’s ban smoking and drinking as well as DoTerra.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  29. #1109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Why ban conversion therapy? Why not just ban it for minors and regulate advertising around it? If I’m an adult and I want to go through conversion therapy at my own cost, why can’t I do that? There are a multitude of things we allow people to do to themselves that are harmful or ineffective or both and we aren’t outright banning those. I mean, let’s ban smoking and drinking as well as DoTerra.
    The statute cited by Funk above states that it is a ban on those under the age of 18.

  30. #1110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Why ban conversion therapy? Why not just ban it for minors and regulate advertising around it? If I’m an adult and I want to go through conversion therapy at my own cost, why can’t I do that? There are a multitude of things we allow people to do to themselves that are harmful or ineffective or both and we aren’t outright banning those. I mean, let’s ban smoking and drinking as well as DoTerra.
    It is only banned for minors. If an adult wants to pay someone to abuse them, they are allowed to do that. I don't think we should license people that are willing to engage in abusive therapeutic practices with minors or adults.

    Also, there is nothing in this that is prohibiting an adult from taking their child to someone that is willing to abuse the child. It is just that people that abuse children will lose their license.
    You know I'm free
    B*** you know I'm free
    Face it girl I'm free
    Yeah you know I'm free
    Okay I'm free yeah
    Free to chain my will onto the wings of my instinct
    And wander round this box you know I'm inextricably linked
    That's right I'm free to make a sooth to catch some stuff that holds me down
    To capture my desires fashion out a viscid crown
    . . .
    I never leave I'm super free
    To fill my smiles up with the tears that I forgot
    And haunt myself beside these pretty ghosts that float my heart
    You know I'm free
    -- Shabazz Palaces: Free Press and Curl

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