"Hold my root beer" - the Russell M. Nelson thread

[clackamascoug]

Maybe, maybe not. But you're answering a question that isn't being asked. First, while you describe the dynamics of a typical progression in an organization, I don't think this is what happens in the Church. I think the leaders are largely humble and earnest and doing their best to stay that way. There are certainly exceptions and, as I think we all concede here (and as they freely admit), they are far from perfect, but they are far better than your typical corporate org chart festival participants.

Second, not only is your premise flawed, but it is also irrelevant. Even if they all tend to be power hungry rung climbers, it is not at all clear to me how that supposedly induced them to come up with the 2015 policy or to adopt the 2019 change.

Third, your other premise, that success in life or at church prevents one from being humble in spirit is also flawed. It's hard for the camel to get through the gate, but not impossible. This also seems to bear little relationship to the issues being discussed.

Fourth, there is the issue of authority/caling/order to God's kingdom. The prophet has the keys, mud-shoe Joe does not.

Finally, what is your point, exactly? Of course anyone can be as close to the spirit as the prophet. They can also be just as susceptible to error as the prophet. That's why we are all told to seek our own witness. We are all, ultimately, accountable to God for our own actions.

I get it - a little too close to home.

Deny-Deny-Deny.

[creekster]

I get it - a little too close to home.

Deny-Deny-Deny.

I am not particularly successful in the world or in the church. I have no connections to the GAs (although my mother claims a member of President Nelson's security team lives in her ward, if that counts). I struggle daily with my faith and belief. I was raised by dirty-shoed people who never really had time for the church although they were some of the best people anyone could ever meet. So, no, other than findling your facile description unfair and not on-point, I did not think it very close to home at all.

[MartyFunkhouser]

How are they better? Under what circumstances should their words be given more weight than my neighbor or the mayor or Oprah?

Let’s suppose God appeared to you tonight in a vision and said,


“Hey, Russell M. Nelson is my prophet so I want you to pay attention to what he says and follow it the best you can. He is human, so some of his biases and human frailties might muddy the waters from time to time in spite of his best efforts. But don’t worry, I have given you the power of discernment and the Holy Ghost to help you. This will require some effort on your part, but I want you to trust him and give him the benefit of the doubt as my mouthpiece. I promise you that I will bless you if you do so.”


Would you respond, “Sorry God. “If it’s not a perfect transmission of your will, then I am sticking with Oprah and Twitter.”?

If that happened, I would be really wondering who put shrooms or LSD in my glass of whiskey

[MartyFunkhouser]

I think this topic is like freedom of speech. Everybody supports it in principle, but once you start applying it to real-world examples, that support gets shaky.

(I am ignoring the obvious hyperbole in your second example)

Dude that isn't hyperbole that is what happened. Electoshock aversion therapy is mental/physical torture.

[clackamascoug]

I am not particularly successful in the world or in the church. I have no connections to the GAs (although my mother claims a member of President Nelson's security team lives in her ward, if that counts). I struggle daily with my faith and belief. I was raised by dirty-shoed people who never really had time for the church although they were some of the best people anyone could ever meet. So, no, other than findling your facile description unfair and not on-point, I did not think it very close to home at all.

Understood... I've only met three members of the Q12 in the last ten years. My impression was that they each are type A's and have to work at being humble - versus being so humble that they need to at being dynamic. I apologize for having ten pairs of clean shoes, and not struggling with my faith. I struggle keeping a foot in reality and becoming jaded with rules and regulations that seem to overshadow love and compassion. The bottom line - I like you - and want you to like me. So let's be friends in spirit.

Blame it on Lewbowski!

[Jeff Lebowski]

Dude that isn't hyperbole that is what happened. Electoshock aversion therapy is mental/physical torture.

If you are talking about some LDS therapists and researchers in mid-70's that experimented with aversion therapy (which was tested at several universities, not just BYU) and claiming that it was some sort of doctrinal directive from the top leadership of the church or that they should be held responsible to micromanage something like that, then yes, I would say you are engaging in the worst kind of hyperbole.

[myboynoah]

I don't always make it work. I do believe the GAs are individuals struggling with the spirit to understand what God wants, and as JL noted, it's our responsibility to struggle with the same spirit. Since GA's carry the cross that is the weight of preservation, they will likely err in the direction of what has been.

Bingo. They have 16 million Saints with whom to concern themselves.

[myboynoah]

Understood... I've only met three members of the Q12 in the last ten years. My impression was that they each are type A's and have to work at being humble - versus being so humble that they need to at being dynamic.

Very strange assessment.

[cowboy]

Nobody needs my approval, but I will offer my opinion: The Dude, Creek, Jarid, and others have given solid, succinct explanations for the reason church members believe. Nothing about faith can be proven, hence the definition, so trying to prove the brethren are not called of God is as pointless as trying to prove they are. Ultimately, it starts with a desire to believe, and goes from there. If you cannot or choose not to believe, that's fine. In my opinion, being true to yourself and your convictions is what ultimately brings you close to God.

This week's Come Follow Me reference material includes a talk by Jeffrey R. Holland, "Help Thou My Unbelief", and it is an excellent reference for anyone who wants to believe but struggles to get there. If you've already checked out, we can still be friends. The list of people I admire most includes people of all beliefs.

Edit: Clack, I'm not connected by any stretch, but I've met a few apostles and several members of the seventy. Most were type A's, but they were all kind, considerate, and humble. It's anecdotal, and I know there are exceptions, but I've never met a general authority who didn't seem to genuinely love the people he was with.

[Maximus]

If you are talking about some LDS therapists and researchers in mid-70's that experimented with aversion therapy (which was tested at several universities, not just BYU) and claiming that it was some sort of doctrinal directive from the top leadership of the church or that they should be held responsible to micromanage something like that, then yes, I would say you are engaging in the worst kind of hyperbole.

So they knew just as much as everyone else

[Brian]

So they knew just as much as everyone else

Well said.
Is there a mic drop emoji?

[Jeff Lebowski]

So they knew just as much as everyone else

Well if you think God should be directing prophets to micromanage obscure research projects at BYU, you might have a point.

Suppose that God felt the need to "inspire" these leaders to correct and comment on every social issue such that we would all at some later point in time look back and say, "Wow, he nailed it again. Perfect record." Do you think there would be a role for faith in such an environment?

[Brian]

I’ve really enjoyed the conversation the last few days on this topic. I think it gets at the essence of so much.
I’m certainly not smart enough to contribute anything that will matter.
But I agree with the general sentiment that is not binary, it’s quite complex, and often contradictory. Like life, I guess.

The only way I can make sense of it all is summed up by what Maximus said above. Everyone is stumbling through life, and in our best moments, trying to do what we hope is right. If you get a bunch of smart, good people in charge, the odds for good outcomes improve. I think that’s how things are everywhere. God will try and inspire each as best as possible. That mileage varries. The “sins of the fathers” and “traditions” run deep. I try and keep that in mind, and trust that god will keep it in mind about me.
Agency is real. And I don’t think that God will take out someone if they go astray.
Life is random, fun, hard, complicated and might have no meaning. So, as Jesus said, “let’s be kind”

[MartyFunkhouser]

If you are talking about some LDS therapists and researchers in mid-70's that experimented with aversion therapy (which was tested at several universities, not just BYU) and claiming that it was some sort of doctrinal directive from the top leadership of the church or that they should be held responsible to micromanage something like that, then yes, I would say you are engaging in the worst kind of hyperbole.

Nice minimization there and trying to whitewash what actually happened. I'm not saying it was a doctrinal directive from the top leadership of the church, but it was actions that were consistent with LDS doctrine at the time (thankfully it is not consistent with current doctrine).

[cowboy]

Nice minimization there and trying to whitewash what actually happened...

Funk, you are welcome to believe what you want, but this is the hyperbole that the Dude was referencing earlier. He is anything but an apologist, and you know it. I think he's being clear, but just in case someone is reading this thread and hasn't intentionally misconstrued JL's posts, I'll offer an example:

My wife and I have tried to go on a date every Friday for the last 25 years. For the last 10 or so years, the oldest child in the house was left in charge. She didn't always do everything the way we wanted, but she had our number for emergencies and we had confidence that the rest of the kids would be alive when we got home. Even though we knew she'd make mistakes, we expected the younger kids to obey her when she spoke. The obvious exception was if she asked them to do something that the younger kids believed would result in their own personal harm. Any other policy would have resulted in chaos. Sometimes we came home to broken things and even bumps and bruises, but the kids were safer with an imperfect babysitter than with none at all. Likewise, our daughter learned valuable skills and experience.

So it is with the church. God leaves spiritually mature people in charge. He may not have everything done exactly the way He wants it, and sometimes people get hurt along the way, but He is doing what he can with who He has to work with. We are better off with imperfect leadership than with none at all. Because He can't take away anyone's learning experience, God has to let the prophets and apostles learn by experience just like everyone else. The result is spiritual safety despite some rough patches along the way.

It is simply up to us to decide if we believe they are really the people that God has put in charge. If you don't believe they are, that's fine, but judging those who do, accusing them of whitewashing and minimizing the rough patches, makes you just as pious and judgemental as the members you repudiate. Even worse, it makes you a hypocrite.