"Hold my root beer" - the Russell M. Nelson thread

[Jeff Lebowski]

But that’s what the church asks me to do every Sunday. No, not asks. Commands.

Dang it, Scoop. It has been a steady decline after your first post. Get back on point!

[creekster]

Pick one of the myriad of GC rumors.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get anything else at GC besides this policy change.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This is a false dichotomy. You assume you know God's mind? WHy isn't it possible that he allows his church to make mistakes and to correct its course pursuant to gentle spiritual input over time? Is it possible that God doesn't focus on the same issues to the same degree or in the same time frame that we do? I accept they are human and will make mistakes not becasue there is no god inspiring them, but because God's input IS inspiration and is NOT compulsion and requires interpretation. Are you saying you're comfortable with a God who used to dislike gays but now decides that orientation isnt really a sin? And that he changed his mind because some set of his children kept asking him and, like a distracted father tossing his car keys to the whining teenager who won't stop asking for them on Friday night, he relents? This just doesn't make much sense to me.

I don't want it both ways. I believe in something in the middle. I don't think God changed his mind on this. I think the leaders did. I don't think they are without inspiration, I think it took them a few tries to get there. I do not expect perfection because no one is perfect. It seems to me the people here who are the most insistent that the church leaders are wrong are also the ones least willing to allow them to be wrong. Of course they aren't perfect! And of course their imperfections appear most stark on difficult present issues.

FWIW, I dont believe that jealous God stuff is a correct statement. In fact, I don't buy that much of the Old Testament as literal.

Well said.

This response from wuap:

If the Brethren screw up, as Special Witnesses, Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, then it doesn't withstand any kind of empirical scrutiny that god would let people endowed with those powers to act in his name botch things the way they sometimes have.

is a fairly typical one. "I believe they are fallible. But not really."

[Jarid in Cedar]

. "I believe they are fallible. But not really."

Nailed it

[old_gregg]

Well said.

This response from wuap:



is a fairly typical one. "I believe they are fallible. But not really."

you miss wuap’s point. it has nothing to do with his subjective belief re fallibility, but everything to do with the church’s representations and manifestations re fallibility. the version of the church you and creek have put together makes sense and is coherent, but is patently not reflective of the words and actions of senior apostles.

[Jeff Lebowski]

you miss wuap’s point. it has nothing to do with his subjective belief re fallibility, but everything to do with the church’s representations and manifestations re fallibility. the version of the church you and creek have put together makes sense and is coherent, but is patently not reflective of the words and actions of senior apostles.

I don't believe that was wuap's point. But to your point, I will post this again:

"And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes." - Pres Uchtdorf, 2013

This is from a member of the FP (at the time). Seems pretty senior to me.

Is this something they emphasize constantly? No. Nor do they constantly claim infallibility. One thing I have noticed is some people get bent out of shape by frequent exhortations to "follow the prophet" and "the lord has directed us", etc. Those are NOT claims of infallibility.

[creekster]

you miss wuap’s point. it has nothing to do with his subjective belief re fallibility, but everything to do with the church’s representations and manifestations re fallibility. the version of the church you and creek have put together makes sense and is coherent, but is patently not reflective of the words and actions of senior apostles.

I think you may have done for wuap's complaint what you say Lebowski did for the church's position.

The apostles' actions are exactly consistent with what I am saying unless you think it requires an abject apology, which I do not. As to the words of the senior apostles, I think you, and maybe Wuap, have a better point. But the gospel requires that we hold these dissonant positions in our minds as we believe and live by faith. I think that's what faith is all about. In the meantime, the authority to act is important to the order and progress of the kingdom on earth, leading some members to abdicate their own agency thereto, but I am not sure God demands it.

[ScoopJahoop]

How so?

Really?

[creekster]

Really?

Yes, really.

[ScoopJahoop]

Yes, really.

I don’t know how to answer that.
May I ask what you think the role of the brethren is? What function do they serve in your mind?

[ScoopJahoop]

Dang it, Scoop. It has been a steady decline after your first post. Get back on point!

I’m trying

[Jarid in Cedar]

I don’t know how to answer that.
May I ask what you think the role of the brethren is? What function do they serve in your mind?

They are captains of the ship. Their purpose is to keep the ship pointed to the horizon, taking the safest course to the destination. And as happens on a long journey, they occasionally steer towards the rocks, thinking it is the right course.

[Pelado]

They are captains of the ship. Their purpose is to keep the ship pointed to the horizon, taking the safest course to the destination. And as happens on a long journey, they occasionally steer towards the rocks, thinking it is the right course.

Or, alternatively, to get a picture of the cool rocks.

[Moliere]

They are captains of the ship. Their purpose is to keep the ship pointed to the horizon, taking the safest course to the destination. And as happens on a long journey, they occasionally steer towards the rocks, thinking it is the right course.

The funny thing about this time is that it seems everyone except the brethren knew where the rocks were. Thankfully they sometimes listen to the passengers and even the people in other ships making a similar journey.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The funny thing about this time is that it seems everyone except the brethren knew where the rocks were. Thankfully they sometimes listen to the passengers and even the people in other ships making a similar journey.

Given the typical inertia of the ship, that was a pretty darn quick course correction.

I have to wonder how much of that initial policy was driven by TSM.