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  • Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    Having invested many billions of dollars in U.S. weaponry systems, the Saudis aren't going to suddenly switch over to Russian armaments as the cost of such a switch would devastate the Saudis' already precarious economic outlook. But I wonder if Trump has the huevos to take a stand against a despot who ordered the murder of a U.S. permanent resident. Is Trump ready to jeopardize the millions he has made, and can expect to make, from Saudi interests in his properties.
    :hottake:
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    • Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
      Having invested many billions of dollars in U.S. weaponry systems, the Saudis aren't going to suddenly switch over to Russian armaments as the cost of such a switch would devastate the Saudis' already precarious economic outlook. But I wonder if Trump has the huevos to take a stand against a despot who ordered the murder of a U.S. permanent resident. Is Trump ready to jeopardize the millions he has made, and can expect to make, from Saudi interests in his properties.
      Trump has a lot of business interests with Saudis and was wined, dined and flattered by them early in his pitiful presidency.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Topper View Post
        Okay, what is your solution? Do we undermine the Royal Prince's authority for what has been a somewhat reliable ally in an unstable region?

        You're betting the cost of switching keeps them in our camp, but they could slacken intelligence if they feel threatened. What's a Realpolitik? Everybody wants us to punish an oppressive ally for the murder of its own citizen.
        Dude, we don't come up with solutions here, we just provide cynical takes on whatever's going on. What MBS did was terrible, but it's just another in a long line of reprehensible Saudi actions that we've tolerated for years, thus giving MBS the sense he can do whatever he wants with impunity. As Orange Julius is fond of saying to other countries, it's even more accurate with the Saudis that they need us more than we need them. We should act like it.

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        • Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
          Dude, we don't come up with solutions here, we just provide cynical takes on whatever's going on. What MBS did was terrible, but it's just another in a long line of reprehensible Saudi actions that we've tolerated for years, thus giving MBS the sense he can do whatever he wants with impunity. As Orange Julius is fond of saying to other countries, it's even more accurate with the Saudis that they need us more than we need them. We should act like it.
          Nobody is suggesting any Realpolitik solution other than lots of complaining.

          But for all who are complaining what should the US in terms of foreign policy if an ally acts against our conscience or badly?

          If Israel had done this we would see less consternation.
          "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

          Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

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          • Seeing long-time posters complain about the cynical posting style here on the board is a sight to behold.
            You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
            Almost everything you post is snarky, smug, condescending, or just downright mean-spirited. --Jeffrey Lebowski

            Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump
            You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Topper View Post
              Nobody is suggesting any Realpolitik solution other than lots of complaining.

              But for all who are complaining what should the US in terms of foreign policy if an ally acts against our conscience or badly?

              If Israel had done this we would see less consternation.
              Some here may have to sit down as they read this, but I'm encouraged by one recent move by Trump on this: his appointment a few days ago of retired four-star general John Abizaid as ambassador to Saudi Arabia, a slot that had been empty since the beginning, leaving Jared Kushner (enough said) as the point person in dealing with the Saudis, until now.

              The linked article is by Peter Bergen, whose book The United States of Jihad provides a very good look at the sources of foreign and domestic terrorism. His commendation of recent actions by Pompeo gives me some hope.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
                Some here may have to sit down as they read this, but I'm encouraged by one recent move by Trump on this: his appointment a few days ago of retired four-star general John Abizaid as ambassador to Saudi Arabia, a slot that had been empty since the beginning, leaving Jared Kushner (enough said) as the point person in dealing with the Saudis, until now.

                The linked article is by Peter Bergen, whose book The United States of Jihad provides a very good look at the sources of foreign and domestic terrorism. His commendation of recent actions by Pompeo gives me some hope.
                Meh. Everything that President Trump has done wrt to Saudi Arabia has just perpetuated the bullshit "alliance" we must preserve since supposedly SA is a bulwark against Iran. We have been subordinating our interests in the region to those of the Saudis for decades. One dead journalist isn't going to change that. Rand Paul just two days ago (as I linked to earlier) tried to get the arms deal to SA-ally Bahrain voted down... he got 20 other votes. The line of logic that frank posits that our position wrt Saudi Arabia would change but for President Trump's conflict of interest is laughable on its face. There are too many powerful forces (i.e. the military industrial complex and its lobbyists) that want to keep that arms money flowing. These forces effectively subjugate US interests to those of these arms client states... which is why we are in Syria (illegally) and why we are essentially doing nothing about Yemen.

                From a foreign policy POV, we don't benefit from this relationship to our regional ME arms client states, yet one administration after another insists that we must maintain the relationships with those clients... even if we have to look the other way when a journalist gets dismembered. We have reached a point where the US will enable the most horrific atrocities to keep the Saudis "on board" because, 1) they buy a lot of arms, and 2) their hostility towards Iran aligns with that of the war party and its enablers.

                I'm glad you have finally caught up. Now go and get frank to partake.
                You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
                Almost everything you post is snarky, smug, condescending, or just downright mean-spirited. --Jeffrey Lebowski

                Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump
                You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
                  One administration after another insists that we must maintain the relationships with those clients... even if we have to look the other way when a journalist gets dismembered. We have reached a point where the US will enable the most horrific atrocities to keep the Saudis "on board" because, 1) they buy a lot of arms, and 2) their hostility towards Iran aligns with that of the war party and its enablers.
                  Swish.

                  Not sure why Trump even bothered to sign his own name to the Saudi propaganda he released today.

                  As I've said from the very first response to this thread... one dead journalist ain't no thing.
                  You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
                  Almost everything you post is snarky, smug, condescending, or just downright mean-spirited. --Jeffrey Lebowski

                  Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump
                  You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
                    Swish.

                    Not sure why Trump even bothered to sign his own name to the Saudi propaganda he released today.

                    As I've said from the very first response to this thread... one dead journalist ain't no thing.
                    You’ve gotta hand it to Trump for his brutal honesty I guess: Hey we make a lot of money selling arms to the Saudis. America first! We’re not giving that up.

                    At least if nothing else this dead journalist is making people sit up and pay a little attention to this atrocity in Yemen to which our government is highly complicit. If there is any good to come from Khashoggi’s death maybe it will be thousands of Yemeni civilians who would otherwise have been massacred.

                    Comment


                    • Jamal Khashoggi was barred from writing in Saudi Arabia after he criticized Trump, then left his native country


                      Khashoggi considered himself a patriot, rejecting the term dissident, but he was often critical of the Saudi government in his reporting. But Saudi Arabia's government actually barred him from appearing in media there after he criticized President Donald Trump in late 2016, according to the US State Department.

                      Khashoggi had criticized Trump's stance and rhetoric on the Middle East in an appearance at a Washington, DC, think tank.

                      "The expectation that 'Trump as president' will be starkly different from 'Trump as candidate' is a false hope at best," Khashoggi said at the time.

                      Khashoggi left his native country roughly six months after the ban in June 2017, which also prohibited him from making TV appearances and attending conferences. He became a US resident — splitting time between Virginia, Istanbul, and London — and wrote columns for The Washington Post.

                      From a 2017 State Department report on Saudi Arabia human rights:

                      "Well-known Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi said he moved to the United States in 'self-exile' and 'could face arrest upon returning home' due to his writing. He claimed his column in Saudi newspaper al-Hayat had been cancelled under political pressure. In 2016 authorities purportedly banned him from writing, appearing on television, and attending conferences as the result of remarks he made that were interpreted as criticizing the president of the United States, according to multiple media sources. Earlier, in July, authorities reportedly lifted the writing ban against him."

                      In a conversation with Columbia Journalism Review in March 2018, Khashoggi reflected on the ban.

                      "I'm a believer in free journalism, despite all the limitations we had. I always pushed the envelope, I always wanted to have more space," he said.
                      https://www.businessinsider.com/why-...ng-ban-2018-10

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                      • Originally posted by Bo Diddley View Post
                        CIA says Crown Prince ordered the killing of Khashoggi. I suspected this from early on. What's the fall-out? Maybe not so much from our current Executive Branch, but long-term, how will this play out?
                        maybe he did, maybe he didn't0

                        Comment


                        • Trump’s Amoral Saudi Statement Is a Pure Expression of Decades-Old “U.S. Values” and Foreign Policy Orthodoxies

                          This statement [issued by Donald Trump on Tuesday] instantly and predictably produced pompous denunciations pretending that Trump’s posture was a deviation from, a grievous violation of, long-standing U.S. values and foreign policy rather than what it actually and obviously is: a perfect example – perhaps stated a little more bluntly and candidly than usual – of how the U.S. has conducted itself in the world since at least the end of World War II.

                          The reaction was so intense because the fairy tale about the U.S. standing up for freedom and human rights in the world is one of the most pervasive and powerful prongs of western propaganda, the one relied upon by U.S. political and media elites to convince not just the U.S. population but also themselves of their own righteousness, even as they spend decades lavishing the world’s worst tyrants and despots with weapons, money, intelligence and diplomatic protection to carry out atrocities of historic proportions.

                          After all, if you have worked in high-level foreign policy positions in Washington, or at the think thanks and academic institutions that support those policies, or in the corporate media outlets that venerate those who rise to the top of those precincts (and which increasingly hire those security state officials as news analysts), how do you justify to yourself that you’re still a good person even though you arm, prop up, empower and enable the world’s worst monsters, genocides, and tyrannies?

                          Simple: by pretending that you don’t do any of that, that such acts are contrary to your system of values, that you actually work to oppose rather than protect such atrocities, that you’re a warrior and crusader for democracy, freedom and human rights around the world.

                          That’s the lie that you have to tell yourself: so that you can look in the mirror without instantly feeling revulsion, so that you can show your face in decent society without suffering the scorn and ostracization that your actions merit, so that you can convince the population over which you have ruled that the bombs you drop and the weapons with which you flood the world are actually designed to help and protect people rather than slaughter and oppress them.

                          That’s why it was so necessary – to the point of being more like a physical reflex than a conscious choice – to react to Trump’s Saudi statement with contrived anger and shock rather than admitting the truth that he was just candidly acknowledging the core tenets of U.S. foreign policy for decades.
                          You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
                          Almost everything you post is snarky, smug, condescending, or just downright mean-spirited. --Jeffrey Lebowski

                          Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump
                          You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
                            You’ve gotta hand it to Trump for his brutal honesty I guess: Hey we make a lot of money selling arms to the Saudis. America first! We’re not giving that up.

                            At least if nothing else this dead journalist is making people sit up and pay a little attention to this atrocity in Yemen to which our government is highly complicit. If there is any good to come from Khashoggi’s death maybe it will be thousands of Yemeni civilians who would otherwise have been massacred.
                            Looks like we're not going to refuel SA's jets for this anymore. Our foreign policy is so short sighted and selfish.

                            Originally posted by Maximus View Post
                            maybe he did, maybe he didn't0

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                            • Originally posted by Bo Diddley View Post
                              The US isn't the only player on the world stage, and Trump won't be around forever. The piper will be paid--but what cost will they bear?
                              I wonder what cost Trump will pay from his response to the murder and cover-up. Even in the current state of polarized politics in America, Republican senators are breaking with Trump.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bo Diddley View Post
                                I wonder what cost Trump will pay from his response to the murder and cover-up. Even in the current state of polarized politics in America, Republican senators are breaking with Trump.
                                because even given the complex relationship with the Saudis over the years, this event seems extreme, even for them. Is it possible the crown prince overestimated the cover he'd get from America on this? And if so, what would have given him that idea, or is it only because he's just enough of a brazen narcissist to assume it? Certainly Trump appears to be trying to give him as much cover as possible, which is clearly falling apart now.
                                Last edited by BlueK; 12-06-2018, 11:36 AM.

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