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Thread: Time for Dave Rose to move along?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    I was disappointed with both of those transfers - I really liked Bartley's athleticism and overall skill set. Chatman played solid defense and was at least decent as a shooter/scorer.
    Chatman left because of a game of 1 on 1 on 1 where he saw the future didnít include him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDog View Post
    Chatman left because of a game of 1 on 1 on 1 where he saw the future didn’t include him.
    Why did you have to beat him down so thoroughly?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    TJ is not a good ball handler. The reason Hardnett is on the team is because TJ is not a good ball handler.

    Ergo, TJ should not be the starting PG.
    Tell that to St. Maryís PG.

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    Thurl would have had us win by 20 tonight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDog View Post
    Tell that to St. Maryís PG.
    How many times has BYU with TJ Haws beaten St. Mary's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    How many times has BYU with TJ Haws beaten St. Mary's?
    How is that relevant? You said he wasn’t a good ball handler. Earlier this year he crossed over St Mary’s PG so bad the kid sprained his ankle and had to go to the locker room. The outcome of the game is irrelevant for the discuss, isn’t it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDog View Post
    How is that relevant? You said he wasn’t a good ball handler. Earlier this year he crossed over St Mary’s PG so bad the kid sprained his ankle and had to go to the locker room. The outcome of the game is irrelevant for the discuss, isn’t it?

    SHUT THE EFF UP!

    I said it. The number of times he dribbled then ball off his foot and/or had an idiotic turnover is several times greater than the number of times he “broke” SMC’s PG’s ankle. But you hold onto that one play if it makes you feel better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDog View Post
    How is that relevant? You said he wasn’t a good ball handler. Earlier this year he crossed over St Mary’s PG so bad the kid sprained his ankle and had to go to the locker room. The outcome of the game is irrelevant for the discuss, isn’t it?
    Strength and body control are a critical aspect of ball handling. Haws has the handles of a guy that impresses in a street ball game not the kind that can manage a game at a high D1 level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    SHUT THE EFF UP!

    I said it. The number of times he dribbled then ball off his foot and/or had an idiotic turnover is several times greater than the number of times he “broke” SMC’s PG’s ankle. But you hold onto that one play if it makes you feel better.
    TJ is a very good ball handler. He sucks at dealing with physicality but he’s a very good ball handler. That play was an example, not the whole story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jay santos View Post
    Strength and body control are a critical aspect of ball handling. Haws has the handles of a guy that impresses in a street ball game not the kind that can manage a game at a high D1 level.
    Heís top 100 in the country in assist to turnover ratio. Seems like he can manage a game at a high D1 level.

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    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDog View Post
    He’s top 100 in the country in assist to turnover ratio. Seems like he can manage a game at a high D1 level.
    He’s number 100! He’s number 100!

    I am not a Haws hater, but I think there’s a reason Hardnett is running the point.
    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDog View Post
    How is that relevant? You said he wasn’t a good ball handler. Earlier this year he crossed over St Mary’s PG so bad the kid sprained his ankle and had to go to the locker room. The outcome of the game is irrelevant for the discuss, isn’t it?
    Wins are the only thing that is relevant.

    I never said he was a poor ball handler, and making one good play is neat I guess, but means absolutely nothing if it does not equate to team success. Going back to last season I said Haws is not the best player on the team and he is a poor defender and rebounder, which are accurate statements.

    One thing I have been impressed about Haws this season, is he has obviously made a concerted effort to improve those two aspects of his game (defence and rebounding), at the expense of his offensive output and maybe even ball handling. That's a good sign for the future.
    Last edited by tooblue; 02-25-2018 at 11:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    Heís number 100! Heís number 100!

    I am not a Haws hater, but I think thereís a reason Hardnett is running the point.
    Heís in the top 100. By definition that would make him capable of handling the ball at the D1 level. I think heís in the 70s which would make him top 5% of starters. Maybe itís just me but I think itís patently unreasonable to say a guy canít handle the ball at this level with those stats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Wins are the only thing that is relevant.

    I never said he was a poor ball handler, and making one good play is neat I guess, but means absolutely nothing if it does not equate to team success. Going back to last season I said Haws is not the best player on the team and he is a poor defender and rebounder, which are accurate statements.

    One thing I have been impressed about Haws this season, is he has obviously made a concerted effort to improve those two aspects of his game (defence and rebounding), at the expense of his offensive output and maybe even ball handling. That's a good sign for the future.
    You sound like Ricky Bobby. Regardless, I went back and read, it was Green Monstah who said TJ couldn’t handle the ball and to whom I replied. I just thought it was you because you replied to my reply. Personally, I think his offensive woes are system driven. All our non-physical guys are struggling in Schroyer’s system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    He’s number 100! He’s number 100!

    I am not a Haws hater, but I think there’s a reason Hardnett is running the point.
    Jashire is running the point because it is easier for TJ and Eli to score from the wing. Ask coach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDog View Post
    You sound like Ricky Bobby. Regardless, I went back and read, it was Green Monstah who said TJ couldnít handle the ball and to whom I replied. I just thought it was you because you replied to my reply. Personally, I think his offensive woes are system driven. All our non-physical guys are struggling in Schroyerís system.
    If they can't handle the physicality of the WCC, then maybe they shouldn't be playing D1 ball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    If they can't handle the physicality of the WCC, then maybe they shouldn't be playing D1 ball.
    Some people will refuse to accept that alone Oeak was the downfall of Rose.
    Get confident, stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
    Some people will refuse to accept that alone Oeak was the downfall of Rose.
    Before I can refuse to except it, I have to understand what it means.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Before I can refuse to except it, I have to understand what it means.
    Lone Peak I think...maybe a typo
    Dyslexics are teople poo...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Before I can refuse to except it, I have to understand what it means.
    When you know you know. #sjbh

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
    When you know you know. #sjbh
    I am not as 0oamart as wyuuu!
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    It is really difficult for me to figure out what has caused the recent drop in play. In essence, I am not convinced the talent of the past 2-3 years is any worse than the talent Rose had from year 1 until Jimmer's upperclass seasons. I am of the camp that believed Rose took BYU to greater heights than its natural position and advantages would take it - he was overachieving. Part of the disgruntlement is because of the consistent success he had in years 2-4 then which was topped off with Jimmer's junior and senior years in years 5-6. Now that golden era had some advantages that the past few years did not - namely many good players who did not serve missions and very few injuries. However, this attrition of the past few years and the manner in which that mitigated success, to that I include Mika's as if a coach at BYU is going to be good he has got to find a way to keep really good LDS kids from Utah County who go to BYU around long enough to win more games than Rose has this past year. Also this season Rose did not have any injuries to key players, he did lose Emery admittedly, but this is a year Rose had an advantage of having his two best players as non-RMs and yet we underachieved. I think many of my thoughts are reflected in Santos' opinion which seems to be that while we are unable to figure out exactly why BYU has slightly underachieved the past few years the evidence indicates it has and like he I am lost to what I think needs to be done to rectify it. I don't think it is time for Rose to move along per se, but I am less than confident things will get much better with him in charge. I hope there is no turnover after this season and next year he proves me wrong. I am of the opinion that the talent on this year's team was better than what the final product is. He has a good mix of talented RMs and non-RMs. I think Dave Rose recruits kids to BYU really well. I worry that he isn't good enough to keep kids at BYU which is a huge challenge given the mission disruptions. So his inability to keep kids exacerbates an already obvious program challenge. We need more continuity to be effective.

    I see football's challenges a lot more clearly than hoops. That is not to say the basketball situation is optimal but at its core I don't think it is hurting recruiting like I believe it is in football. BYU has landed fairly well recruited kids and right now the only explanation for the slight underachievement is youth and that excuse is old already given the turnover which is mostly to blame and after next year I don't think that explanation will be able to work at all. I like what Dave Rose did for a real long time but he is just not seem to get the same performance out of the available talent that I thought he was getting 10 years ago. If he can't make BYU more competitive with what was available to him this year then I am not sure he can get it done often enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    It is really difficult for me to figure out what has caused the recent drop in play. In essence, I am not convinced the talent of the past 2-3 years is any worse than the talent Rose had from year 1 until Jimmer's upperclass seasons. I am of the camp that believed Rose took BYU to greater heights than its natural position and advantages would take it - he was overachieving. Part of the disgruntlement is because of the consistent success he had in years 2-4 then which was topped off with Jimmer's junior and senior years in years 5-6. Now that golden era had some advantages that the past few years did not - namely many good players who did not serve missions and very few injuries. However, this attrition of the past few years and the manner in which that mitigated success, to that I include Mika's as if a coach at BYU is going to be good he has got to find a way to keep really good LDS kids from Utah County who go to BYU around long enough to win more games than Rose has this past year. Also this season Rose did not have any injuries to key players, he did lose Emery admittedly, but this is a year Rose had an advantage of having his two best players as non-RMs and yet we underachieved. I think many of my thoughts are reflected in Santos' opinion which seems to be that while we are unable to figure out exactly why BYU has slightly underachieved the past few years the evidence indicates it has and like he I am lost to what I think needs to be done to rectify it. I don't think it is time for Rose to move along per se, but I am less than confident things will get much better with him in charge. I hope there is no turnover after this season and next year he proves me wrong. I am of the opinion that the talent on this year's team was better than what the final product is. He has a good mix of talented RMs and non-RMs. I think Dave Rose recruits kids to BYU really well. I worry that he isn't good enough to keep kids at BYU which is a huge challenge given the mission disruptions. So his inability to keep kids exacerbates an already obvious program challenge. We need more continuity to be effective.

    I see football's challenges a lot more clearly than hoops. That is not to say the basketball situation is optimal but at its core I don't think it is hurting recruiting like I believe it is in football. BYU has landed fairly well recruited kids and right now the only explanation for the slight underachievement is youth and that excuse is old already given the turnover which is mostly to blame and after next year I don't think that explanation will be able to work at all. I like what Dave Rose did for a real long time but he is just not seem to get the same performance out of the available talent that I thought he was getting 10 years ago. If he can't make BYU more competitive with what was available to him this year then I am not sure he can get it done often enough.
    I agree that in Rose's early years he seemed to overachieve given the talent in the program while the last few years seems like underachieving. In the first few years, my recollection is that Rose rarely if ever lost to teams in the RPI 100+ category, whereas in recent years there have been several each year. Granted, the current conference allows for more opportunities to lose to RPI 100+ teams, but that doesn't require additional losses. There have been mitigating circumstances with injuries and maybe some unexpected player turnover, but results is still what everyone cares about.

    One disappointing aspect to me is that I saw a lot of promise in this team earlier in the season. Elijah was playing under control, making plays, and scoring efficiently. Yoeli was staying out of foul trouble and staying on the court, scoring well, defending the paint, and even passing pretty well. TJ wasn't shooting well, but I figured that would come around. We were getting good ball handling and defense from Hardnett with occasional drives for layups and a few threes here and there. Cannon was an unexpected bonus when he became eligible - another ball handler with decent distance shooting. Luke impressed me with how much he had improved offensively (which is more an indictment of his offensive play pre-mission). Dalton brought good energy and hustle plays off the bench, and showed better offensive skill than I had expected. Zac wasn't shooting as well as we know he can, but, like with TJ, I figured his percentages would come up as the season wore on. I liked the new emphasis on defense but I thought the new offense was taking away good, in-rhythm 3-point attempts - especially from TJ and Zac - simply because the attempts would have been "too early" in the shot clock.

    Then, frustratingly, that nonconference win streak was the high-water mark for the regular season. The offense seems slower and more stagnant now than it did then. TJ improved his shooting, but Zac is still struggling. Offense from Hardnett and Cannon has, for the most part, disappeared. Dalton's injury didn't help the team or his own progress. My sense was that without their teammates contributing offensively, Elijah and Yoeli saw their efficiency decrease.

    Watching that second half against Gonzaga was a good illustration of how far the team has to go in running an efficient offense. The Zags were repeatedly getting good looks from within 5 feet of the basket while the Cougs rarely found an easy bucket.

    Does Rose need to go? I wouldn't make any rash decisions. Even with the supposed underachievement the last few years, BYU is pretty much where they have been historically - they've never really been an elite team. I'd be pretty upset if we showed the door to Rose (whose worst finish to date is the NIT) and end up with being much worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    I agree that in Rose's early years he seemed to overachieve given the talent in the program while the last few years seems like underachieving. In the first few years, my recollection is that Rose rarely if ever lost to teams in the RPI 100+ category, whereas in recent years there have been several each year. Granted, the current conference allows for more opportunities to lose to RPI 100+ teams, but that doesn't require additional losses. There have been mitigating circumstances with injuries and maybe some unexpected player turnover, but results is still what everyone cares about.

    One disappointing aspect to me is that I saw a lot of promise in this team earlier in the season. Elijah was playing under control, making plays, and scoring efficiently. Yoeli was staying out of foul trouble and staying on the court, scoring well, defending the paint, and even passing pretty well. TJ wasn't shooting well, but I figured that would come around. We were getting good ball handling and defense from Hardnett with occasional drives for layups and a few threes here and there. Cannon was an unexpected bonus when he became eligible - another ball handler with decent distance shooting. Luke impressed me with how much he had improved offensively (which is more an indictment of his offensive play pre-mission). Dalton brought good energy and hustle plays off the bench, and showed better offensive skill than I had expected. Zac wasn't shooting as well as we know he can, but, like with TJ, I figured his percentages would come up as the season wore on. I liked the new emphasis on defense but I thought the new offense was taking away good, in-rhythm 3-point attempts - especially from TJ and Zac - simply because the attempts would have been "too early" in the shot clock.

    Then, frustratingly, that nonconference win streak was the high-water mark for the regular season. The offense seems slower and more stagnant now than it did then. TJ improved his shooting, but Zac is still struggling. Offense from Hardnett and Cannon has, for the most part, disappeared. Dalton's injury didn't help the team or his own progress. My sense was that without their teammates contributing offensively, Elijah and Yoeli saw their efficiency decrease.

    Watching that second half against Gonzaga was a good illustration of how far the team has to go in running an efficient offense. The Zags were repeatedly getting good looks from within 5 feet of the basket while the Cougs rarely found an easy bucket.

    Does Rose need to go? I wouldn't make any rash decisions. Even with the supposed underachievement the last few years, BYU is pretty much where they have been historically - they've never really been an elite team. I'd be pretty upset if we showed the door to Rose (whose worst finish to date is the NIT) and end up with being much worse.
    Rose leaving this year would lead to lots of players transferring out. It almost always does at any school when a coach is fired. When you've had a really bad year (like Pepperdine, six wins), you just say who cares and it doesn't matter since you are already terrible. But here I think it would really set everything back for at least a couple of years, and the next coach would have a pretty tough job in front of him. Not worth it.
    Last edited by BlueK; 03-07-2018 at 12:02 PM.

  25. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    Rose leaving this year would lead to lots of players transferring out. It almost always does at any school when a coach is fired. When you've had a really bad year (like Pepperdine, six wins), you just say who cares and it doesn't matter since you are already terrible. But here I think it would really set everything back for at least a couple of years, and the next coach would have a pretty tough job in front of him. Not worth it.
    He needs to stay past next year at least.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

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    JL had a big swish on the Detmer thread but this one is a dud. Rose can stay as long as he wants unless we start having losing seasons or there is a magical sure thing candidate for BYU HC that we know doesn't exist but somehow materializes. I wish we were better but I'm not willing to risk getting a lot worse on a gamble. And I still think Rose putting together a string of good years and a tourney run or two is more likely than a replacement coming in and doing better than Rose's last 5 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    JL had a big swish on the Detmer thread but this one is a dud. Rose can stay as long as he wants unless we start having losing seasons or there is a magical sure thing candidate for BYU HC that we know doesn't exist but somehow materializes. I wish we were better but I'm not willing to risk getting a lot worse on a gamble. And I still think Rose putting together a string of good years and a tourney run or two is more likely than a replacement coming in and doing better than Rose's last 5 years.
    Dude, come on! The other thread was titled "Fire Ty". This one is asking a question. I think the general consensus is that he is underperforming and has some issues. I worry that he might be losing the passion for coaching and mailing it in. I hope I am wrong. Either way, huge difference between Dave Rose and Ty Detmer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    Rose leaving this year would lead to lots of players transferring out. It almost always does at any school when a coach is fired. When you've had a really bad year (like Pepperdine, six wins), you just say who cares and it doesn't matter since you are already terrible. But here I think it would really set everything back for at least a couple of years, and the next coach would have a pretty tough job in front of him. Not worth it.
    Childs isn’t going anywhere and Bryant won’t transfer. Who are you so worried about losing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
    Childs isnít going anywhere and Bryant wonít transfer. Who are you so worried about losing?
    Bergersen
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Bergersen
    excellent.
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    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

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