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  1. #61
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    A few more tidbits on polygamy:

    - 15 of 53 plural wives were married to other mean. Some were leaving broken marriages, but some remained with original husbands.
    - Augusta Cobb was sealed to BY, but then had buyer remorse. She went to BY and said that wanted to be sealed to Jesus Christ instead. BY refused so she said that she would settle for JS. She finally relented and agreed to stay with BY so they were re-sealed. Afterwards, BYU tried to keep her away from JS, fearing JS would win her over.
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  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Look, man, if you go more than 10-12 minutes, you're just gonna chafe or get your pubic hair all knotted together, unless you're all clean shaven like a child, or like some porn star from Kentucky with a bottle of Dr. Bronner's and a Braun Series 7 on his nightstand, which, in that case, you probably take so damn long because you slip out every 4 or 5 thrusts and have to start all over. Either that or you've got a mirror up in there, Narcissus. So, a half hour to an hour of foreplay is fine, but the actual act isn't a marathon...it's the titillating culmination of all the seductive artistry, technique, and imagination you put into the symphony you directed, finally allowing yourselves to combine into the spasming, rollicking, contracting waves of ecstatic, erotic, emotional, trusting oneness. There's no clock on that. Only life and love.
    Even if this is some movie quote, it’s a very clackish post.

    Please tell me this is a movie quote.
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  3. #63
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    This discussion on polygamy brings me back to my thought that the way we view sealings today is very different from how they were viewed in JS/BY time. Back then, people just wnated to be sealed to someone who was surely going to the CK in kind of a "if he goes then the sealing power will pull me in as well" attitude. I'm not discounting polygamy or polyandry as well since that existed in sexual and non-sexual relationships, but a sealing was more of an ordinance to get into the CK than it was a marriage. Today, we can't seem to separate the need to be sealed to enter the CK from the idea of an eternal family. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to whom you are sealed as long as you are sealed. It's the ordinace that grants you access to the CK and once you are there I'm sure you can choose to live with whomever you want to live with....or so it seemed to be preached that way back in the day.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    This discussion on polygamy brings me back to my thought that the way we view sealings today is very different from how they were viewed in JS/BY time. Back then, people just wnated to be sealed to someone who was surely going to the CK in kind of a "if he goes then the sealing power will pull me in as well" attitude. I'm not discounting polygamy or polyandry as well since that existed in sexual and non-sexual relationships, but a sealing was more of an ordinance to get into the CK than it was a marriage. Today, we can't seem to separate the need to be sealed to enter the CK from the idea of an eternal family. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to whom you are sealed as long as you are sealed. It's the ordinace that grants you access to the CK and once you are there I'm sure you can choose to live with whomever you want to live with....or so it seemed to be preached that way back in the day.
    Exactly. Strange times.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    This discussion on polygamy brings me back to my thought that the way we view sealings today is very different from how they were viewed in JS/BY time. Back then, people just wnated to be sealed to someone who was surely going to the CK in kind of a "if he goes then the sealing power will pull me in as well" attitude. I'm not discounting polygamy or polyandry as well since that existed in sexual and non-sexual relationships, but a sealing was more of an ordinance to get into the CK than it was a marriage. Today, we can't seem to separate the need to be sealed to enter the CK from the idea of an eternal family. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to whom you are sealed as long as you are sealed. It's the ordinace that grants you access to the CK and once you are there I'm sure you can choose to live with whomever you want to live with....or so it seemed to be preached that way back in the day.
    So was the "promise of the CK" line back in BY's day like when RM's use to tell girls they had a revelation about them and they were to get married? I am told that gullible women fell for that one too.
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  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post

    Before making fun of me... come up with a plausible explanation on your own on regarding the doctrine of polygamy.
    This sure is tough, but I’ll give it a shot. Joseph Smith wanted to have sex with more than one woman but didn’t want to undermine his position of power as a religious leader. So he made up a story about God sending an angel with a sword that forced him to marry another woman. Other men saw how awesome it would be to get with other women so they supported the new approach.

    Wacky theory, I know. But hey you gotta be creative with these kinds explanations!

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    Local Character clackamascoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    This sure is tough, but I’ll give it a shot. Joseph Smith wanted to have sex with more than one woman but didn’t want to undermine his position of power as a religious leader. So he made up a story about God sending an angel with a sword that forced him to marry another woman. Other men saw how awesome it would be to get with other women so they supported the new approach.

    Wacky theory, I know. But hey you gotta be creative with these kinds explanations!
    OK... can the church be true with a Prophet going around lying (like you suggested) and seducing women including under age girls? Can both things exist at the same time?

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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Sealing children:

    - Sealing of family members didn't start until after they had been sealing couples for a while
    - It was very common to seal people as children who were no relation. "Adoptive sealings" As was the case with plural marriage, everyone wanted to get sealed to a church leader
    - Adoptive children were sealed to the first wife only. I believe this was true for children of plural wives too. Sealed to the alpha wife.
    - The parents of one of BY's plural wives were sealed to BY as his adoptive children.
    - A husband and wife were sealed to BY as children and then later, he married the wife -- his adopted daughter.

    As crazy as it was, this flurry of sealing and adoption and temple work right before leaving Nauvoo tended to create some unity and loyalty among the Saints.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post
    OK... can the church be true with a Prophet going around lying (like you suggested) and seducing women including under age girls? Can both things exist at the same time?
    Dude, oh say what is truth?

    For someone who believes in multiple dimensions to sort out inconsistencies with the church, truth can't be anywhere near the black and white construct that most members believe in, right?

  10. #70
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post
    OK... can the church be true with a Prophet going around lying (like you suggested) and seducing women including under age girls? Can both things exist at the same time?
    Apparently so.


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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Sealing children:

    - Sealing of family members didn't start until after they had been sealing couples for a while
    - It was very common to seal people as children who were no relation. "Adoptive sealings" As was the case with plural marriage, everyone wanted to get sealed to a church leader
    - Adoptive children were sealed to the first wife only. I believe this was true for children of plural wives too. Sealed to the alpha wife.
    - The parents of one of BY's plural wives were sealed to BY as his adoptive children.
    - A husband and wife were sealed to BY as children and then later, he married the wife -- his adopted daughter.

    As crazy as it was, this flurry of sealing and adoption and temple work right before leaving Nauvoo tended to create some unity and loyalty among the Saints.
    What about that "law of adoption" thing Bro. Brigham was doing? That was a lot easier than trying to figure out how you are connected to Abraham, Adam/Father, etc. They should bring that back. That seemed like a good thing to me. This genealogy stuff is too much work. It would be easier if President Nelson or someone with a great "blood of Israel" just adopted me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Dude, oh say what is truth?
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/presentism/#MotiPres

    Presentism is the view that only present things exist (Hinchliff 1996: 123; Crisp 2004: 15; Markosian 2004: 47–48). So understood, presentism is an ontological doctrine; it’s a view about what exists (what there is), absolutely and unrestrictedly.
    https://www.historians.org/publicati...nst-presentism

    Presentism, at its worst, encourages a kind of moral complacency and self-congratulation. Interpreting the past in terms of present concerns usually leads us to find ourselves morally superior; the Greeks had slavery, even David Hume was a racist, and European women endorsed imperial ventures. Our forbears constantly fail to measure up to our present-day standards. This is not to say that any of these findings are irrelevant or that we should endorse an entirely relativist point of view. It is to say that we must question the stance of temporal superiority that is implicit in the Western (and now probably worldwide) historical discipline. In some ways, now that we have become very sensitive about Western interpretations of the non-Western past, this temporal feeling of superiority applies more to the Western past than it does to the non-Western one. We more easily accept the existence and tolerate the moral ambiguities of eunuchs and harems, for example, than of witches. Because they found a place in a non-Western society, eunuchs and harems seem strange to us but they do not reflect badly on our own past. Witches, in contrast, seem to challenge the very basis of modern historical understanding and have therefore provoked immense controversy as well as many fine historical studies.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post
    OK... can the church be true with a Prophet going around lying (like you suggested) and seducing women including under age girls? Can both things exist at the same time?
    Can God work through imperfect vessels to forward his work? If scripture is to be believed, then outside of Christ that is exclusively the case. He worked through liars, adulterers and murderers to forward his work. So what level of imperfection can one accept for one of God’s prophets? Is it okay that Nephi murdered a defenseless drunk, stole valuable artifacts, and kidnapped another man? Moses murdered a slavedriver, but is that what you think of when you consider him a prophet? Do you think of Israel as the man who lied and tricked his blind father into giving him a birthright he didn’t deserve? Or that Abraham slept with a slave and banished her and their offspring to the wilderness?

    If Joseph Smith and other prophets, in their wretched human state, were good enough for the Lord then it provides comfort in knowing that I am as well.

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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    Can God work through imperfect vessels to forward his work? If scripture is to be believed, then outside of Christ that is exclusively the case. He worked through liars, adulterers and murderers to forward his work. So what level of imperfection can one accept for one of God’s prophets? Is it okay that Nephi murdered a defenseless drunk, stole valuable artifacts, and kidnapped another man? Moses murdered a slavedriver, but is that what you think of when you consider him a prophet? Do you think of Israel as the man who lied and tricked his blind father into giving him a birthright he didn’t deserve? Or that Abraham slept with a slave and banished her and their offspring to the wilderness?

    If Joseph Smith and other prophets, in their wretched human state, were good enough for the Lord then it provides comfort in knowing that I am as well.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    Can God work through imperfect vessels to forward his work? If scripture is to be believed, then outside of Christ that is exclusively the case. He worked through liars, adulterers and murderers to forward his work. So what level of imperfection can one accept for one of God’s prophets? Is it okay that Nephi murdered a defenseless drunk, stole valuable artifacts, and kidnapped another man? Moses murdered a slavedriver, but is that what you think of when you consider him a prophet? Do you think of Israel as the man who lied and tricked his blind father into giving him a birthright he didn’t deserve? Or that Abraham slept with a slave and banished her and their offspring to the wilderness?

    If Joseph Smith and other prophets, in their wretched human state, were good enough for the Lord then it provides comfort in knowing that I am as well.
    Wow, when you put it that way I'm not sure I want to follow those guys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Wow, when you put it that way I'm not sure I want to follow those guys!
    Nor would you follow anyone else, then, including yourself, because we have all sinned in the eyes of God.

    My personal feeling is that most great leaders, or Great Men, as the Brits used to say, tend to have great flaws. I think that is part of our nature, part of our package. The same things that keep most people from reaching for or attaining Greatness are also the things that constrain them from succumbing to their darkest urges. This is a generalization, and as such is not true in many instances, but in a broad sweeping way I think this idea explains a lot of what we see in history. I think Brigham Young, to use this thread's example, was a fascinating but flawed man who was also a talented empire builder without whom the nascent stem of God's restored Kingdom would have been trampled underfoot just as it was taking hold. He was needed at that time and that place to do the things that needed to be done. Very few people from any time or place could have done what he did. I don't think it is coincidence that he was there at that time and place. Just so, I think this is why we see different kinds of men ascending to the president's seat now, at this time and place.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    That's a great perspective, YO.

  18. #78
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Wow, when you put it that way I'm not sure I want to follow those guys!
    Tbh, I don’t follow the prophets. I follow Jesus Christ regardless of what people sing in primary


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    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    A few more examples to supplement YOhio's list:

    - Lot, one of the most righteous guys in the OT, offered up his daughters to be gang raped. He then shagged them both.
    - Judah thought his daughter-in-law was a hooker and banged her.
    - David nailed Bathsheba and had Uriah killed.
    - Absalom screwed David's concubines.
    - Moses allowed the Israelites to murder the boys and married women and rape the virgins of the Midianites
    - People criticize prophets and apostles in this dispensation because of imperfections but the Apostles while Jesus was alive displayed lack of comprehension (Mark 4:13), little faith (4:40), hard hearts (6:52), competitiveness (9:34), possessiveness (9:38), selfish ambition (10:37) and jealousy (10:41).
    - Before he was called to be an Apostle, Paul persecuted Christians, tried to trick people into blaspheming, took part in the stoning death of Stephen, arrested men and women and put them in prison or sent them to their deaths.

    But if an apostle today even says one intemperate thing, one remark not perfectly calibrated to the sensibilities of the critics, heaven preserve that apostle from the wrath of self-righteous asshats, including many on this board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    Can God work through imperfect vessels to forward his work? If scripture is to be believed, then outside of Christ that is exclusively the case. He worked through liars, adulterers and murderers to forward his work. So what level of imperfection can one accept for one of God’s prophets? Is it okay that Nephi murdered a defenseless drunk, stole valuable artifacts, and kidnapped another man? Moses murdered a slavedriver, but is that what you think of when you consider him a prophet? Do you think of Israel as the man who lied and tricked his blind father into giving him a birthright he didn’t deserve? Or that Abraham slept with a slave and banished her and their offspring to the wilderness?

    If Joseph Smith and other prophets, in their wretched human state, were good enough for the Lord then it provides comfort in knowing that I am as well.
    Alternatively, it suggests it's all been made up. Yours is the more palatable interpretation no doubt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    Alternatively, it suggests it's all been made up. Yours is the more palatable interpretation no doubt.
    lol. Yes, Topper. It may be that it's all made up. Good point.

  22. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Nor would you follow anyone else, then, including yourself, because we have all sinned in the eyes of God.

    My personal feeling is that most great leaders, or Great Men, as the Brits used to say, tend to have great flaws. I think that is part of our nature, part of our package. The same things that keep most people from reaching for or attaining Greatness are also the things that constrain them from succumbing to their darkest urges. This is a generalization, and as such is not true in many instances, but in a broad sweeping way I think this idea explains a lot of what we see in history. I think Brigham Young, to use this thread's example, was a fascinating but flawed man who was also a talented empire builder without whom the nascent stem of God's restored Kingdom would have been trampled underfoot just as it was taking hold. He was needed at that time and that place to do the things that needed to be done. Very few people from any time or place could have done what he did. I don't think it is coincidence that he was there at that time and place. Just so, I think this is why we see different kinds of men ascending to the president's seat now, at this time and place.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    A few more examples to supplement YOhio's list:

    - Lot, one of the most righteous guys in the OT, offered up his daughters to be gang raped. He then shagged them both.
    - Judah thought his daughter-in-law was a hooker and banged her.
    - David nailed Bathsheba and had Uriah killed.
    - Absalom screwed David's concubines.
    - Moses allowed the Israelites to murder the boys and married women and rape the virgins of the Midianites
    - People criticize prophets and apostles in this dispensation because of imperfections but the Apostles while Jesus was alive displayed lack of comprehension (Mark 4:13), little faith (4:40), hard hearts (6:52), competitiveness (9:34), possessiveness (9:38), selfish ambition (10:37) and jealousy (10:41).
    - Before he was called to be an Apostle, Paul persecuted Christians, tried to trick people into blaspheming, took part in the stoning death of Stephen, arrested men and women and put them in prison or sent them to their deaths.

    But if an apostle today even says one intemperate thing, one remark not perfectly calibrated to the sensibilities of the critics, heaven preserve that apostle from the wrath of self-righteous asshats, including many on this board.
    I know I might be preaching to the choir about taking a highly nuanced view of the historicity of the scriptures. And let me stress that I can glean important teachings from flawed historical figures with a revisionist eye with the best of them. But some of my beef with BY and early church leaders is not that they were flawed. It's that they took to heart what you and others have said about biblical figures, and turned the literal dial up to 11. They didn't see any need for an allegorical view of the Bible. They really believed in that whole god-sanctioned killing and immorality thing, and then formed a gospel trying to justify it. And yes, their literal interpretations of the bible weren't anything out of the ordinary for their time. Sue me for expecting a little better from them.

    I can accept listening to and following flawed church leaders. And I get the importance of humility in oneself it engenders. But seriously, it is time to officially stop trying to put a god-sanctioned sheen on immoral things prophets old and new did. You, me, and the vast majority of members are not nearly as immoral as those guys were.

    And repeal section 132!

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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I know I might be preaching to the choir about taking a highly nuanced view of the historicity of the scriptures. And let me stress that I can glean important teachings from flawed historical figures with a revisionist eye with the best of them. But some of my beef with BY and early church leaders is not that they were flawed. It's that they took to heart what you and others have said about biblical figures, and turned the literal dial up to 11. They didn't see any need for an allegorical view of the Bible. They really believed in that whole god-sanctioned killing and immorality thing, and then formed a gospel trying to justify it. And yes, their literal interpretations of the bible weren't anything out of the ordinary for their time. Sue me for expecting a little better from them.

    I can accept listening to and following flawed church leaders. And I get the importance of humility in oneself it engenders. But seriously, it is time to officially stop trying to put a god-sanctioned sheen on immoral things prophets old and new did. You, me, and the vast majority of members are not nearly as immoral as those guys were.

    And repeal section 132!
    Yeah at the time BY was getting his bearings, half of the country was busy enslaving, raping, and murdering Africans. Just think how morally superior we all are to Thomas Jefferson and George Washington!
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  24. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yeah at the time BY was getting his bearings, half of the country was busy enslaving, raping, and murdering Africans. Just think how morally superior we all are to Thomas Jefferson and George Washington!
    ^^thumbs-up^^

    I really like the PBS special Hamilton's America. In regards to your point above, there is a poignant segment starting at about the 1:00:35 mark, concerning George Washington and his 'flaws.' We are all every bit as "immoral as those guys were," just simply in different ways:

    Last edited by tooblue; 02-02-2018 at 04:19 PM.

  25. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yeah at the time BY was getting his bearings, half of the country was busy enslaving, raping, and murdering Africans. Just think how morally superior we all are to Thomas Jefferson and George Washington!
    Just to clarify, my remarks were mainly directed towards those bad dudes in the bible and BOM, not today's leaders. We are certainly more moral than those older prophets (both the historical ones and the others who weren't real ). And I think in general we stack up pretty well against BY and others of his time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Just to clarify, my remarks were mainly directed towards those bad dudes in the bible and BOM, not today's leaders. We are certainly more moral than those older prophets (both the historical ones and the others who weren't real ). And I think in general we stack up pretty well against BY and others of his time.
    What defines morality? How you live relative to the standards and mores of your own time? Or how you live relative to the grand sweep of time, both past and future? Is it really fair to use the second standard? Are you confident that nothing you are currently doing will be considered immoral by future generations?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Just to clarify, my remarks were mainly directed towards those bad dudes in the bible and BOM, not today's leaders. We are certainly more moral than those older prophets (both the historical ones and the others who weren't real ). And I think in general we stack up pretty well against BY and others of his time.
    Perhaps. I am not sure we are more moral than they were. I think we struggle a lot in our own way. I know I do. Moreover, aren't you the one who a couple of posts ago urged a nuanced and less-literal view of the scriptures? Did Moses really sanction murder and rape? or was that an oral tradition that developed to justify conduct of others and to make a point about the unique nature of the chosen people? Did Lot really do those things with his daughters? Or is it a gripping fireside tale used to make some points. I am not really sure, although probably some of the better scholars here could shed light on that.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  28. #88

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    people are talking past each other here (). the issue is not that prophets are fallible when acting as men. duh--that should be noncontroversial even for the most ardent and orthodox. the problem is that doctrinal concepts (preached and declared as such) are arguably the result of man's fallibility rather than divine revelation. i don't think there's any other way to square 132 or material sections of the journal of discourses, for example. at the point where people are expected to ferret out truth from stuff that's purportedly doctrine, what's the whole point of having prophetic revelation on behalf of the church? sure, the church needs some chief officer by virtue of its hierarchy, but if members have to parse through stuff that's already purportedly the word of god to find what's actually the word of god, i'm not sure that makes sense. the sentiment that we should accept decidedly racist, sexist or other -ist statements because we are also sinners is intellectually lazy and a bunch of hogwash. a racist statement by an 1840s layman is different than a racist statement by a prophet given under the color of revelation.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  29. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    What defines morality? How you live relative to the standards and mores of your own time? Or how you live relative to the grand sweep of time, both past and future? Is it really fair to use the second standard? Are you confident that nothing you are currently doing will be considered immoral by future generations?
    hebrews 13:8
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  30. #90
    Pre-Historic Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    lol. Yes, Topper. It may be that it's all made up. Good point.
    You laugh but the fact that stories written down centuries later than their purported occurrence show people doing all sorts of things inconsistent with their "declared" principles shows something. Your agreeable interpretation is that Divinity is kind and forgives every sinner his sins. An alternative is that there is nobody to object, a disagreeable proposition here but logically an equally possible interpretation.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

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