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Thread: Brother Brigham was one interesting cat

  1. #31
    𐐐𐐄𐐢𐐆𐐤𐐝 𐐓𐐅 𐐜 𐐢𐐃𐐡𐐔 Uncle Ted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Not according to this book!


    In all seriousness, Young is responsible for bringing polygamy out of the shadows and making it a central tenet of Mormon doctrine. Polyandry less so, but he still practiced it. It would have been too much to ask him to realize the profound affects polygamy would have on the church and make a 'course correction'. After all, he believed in it. But, he was the president. He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

    He wasn't the originator of the doctrine, but he did much more than Joseph Smith to canonize it.
    My understanding is that BY effectively pulled Sec 132 "out of the fire"... I am not sure if he read it, however. What does the BY books say?
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  2. #32
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    In all seriousness, Young is responsible for bringing polygamy out of the shadows and making it a central tenet of Mormon doctrine. Polyandry less so, but he still practiced it. It would have been too much to ask him to realize the profound affects polygamy would have on the church and make a 'course correction'. After all, he believed in it. But, he was the president. He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

    He wasn't the originator of the doctrine, but he did much more than Joseph Smith to canonize it.
    This is disingenuous. It was JS doctrine. Yes, BY did more to canonize it because he lived much longer.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Katy Lied's Avatar
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    Frankly, bringing it out of the shadows "loud and proud" is much better than hiding it as was done previously. It goes from victims of prophet's prey to doctrine.

  4. #34
    Invisible Swordsman DrumNFeather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    This is disingenuous. It was JS doctrine. Yes, BY did more to canonize it because he lived much longer.
    He also said he longed for the grave when Joseph first revealed it!
    "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    This is disingenuous. It was JS doctrine. Yes, BY did more to canonize it because he lived much longer.
    All this time I was thinking it was God's doctrine... Thanks for clearing this up!
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    My understanding is that BY effectively pulled Sec 132 "out of the fire"... I am not sure if he read it, however. What does the BY books say?
    I don't remember from "American Moses'. I wonder if the Turner biography goes into that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    This is disingenuous. It was JS doctrine. Yes, BY did more to canonize it because he lived much longer.
    Yes of course. No doubt JS would have ran with it much longer had he lived. But he didn't, and so we have BY to thank for it. I'm not being disingenuous.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Not according to this book!
    Attachment 8542

    In all seriousness, Young is responsible for bringing polygamy out of the shadows and making it a central tenet of Mormon doctrine. Polyandry less so, but he still practiced it. It would have been too much to ask him to realize the profound affects polygamy would have on the church and make a 'course correction'. After all, he believed in it. But, he was the president. He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

    He wasn't the originator of the doctrine, but he did much more than Joseph Smith to canonize it.
    One of your analysis flaws is you hold these guys to modern day mores and not those of the time. So yes, it might be too much to ask him to think that far ahead.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    One of your analysis flaws is you hold these guys to modern day mores and not those of the time. So yes, it might be too much to ask him to think that far ahead.
    dumb argument. mormon 9:9
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    dumb argument. mormon 9:9
    An even more dumb response.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    One of your analysis flaws is you hold these guys to modern day mores and not those of the time. So yes, it might be too much to ask him to think that far ahead.
    I'm not sure we want to delve too deeply into the 'mores of their time' argument. I'd bet that polygamy was near universally condemned in the western world. Even the republicans figured that out pretty quickly.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    An even more dumb response.
    sorry you can't read bro
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I'm not sure we want to delve too deeply into the 'mores of their time' argument. I'd bet that polygamy was near universally condemned in the western world. Even the republicans figured that out pretty quickly.
    it's a stupid argument that makes no sense in the context of lds doctrine
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  13. #43
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    OK, polygamy/polyandry was absolute nuts in the early years. I already knew that, but it is interesting to read it from a fresh angle and learn a few more details. This time around I am surprised at what a high percentage of these early marriages were polyandry (woman already married to other men). And there is no doubt whatsoever that BYU consummated many of these marriages. A few other observations:

    1) Many of the marriages were for time only, not sealings. BY married a lot of widows, including many of JS widows.
    2) One married woman got sealed (polyandry married) to a church leader and then wrote to BY claiming that she made a mistake and she would rather be sealed to him instead.
    3) A significant percentage of these marriages resulted from women approaching BY and asking to become a bride.
    4) Ages ranges from 16-64.
    5) Many of the marriages were not consummated. I believe he was sealed to his mother-in-law. Yeesh.
    6) At one point, both BY and John D. Lee were interested in a woman. BY told Lee that if he backed off and let BY marry her, he would forever have his back and Lee would sit at his right hand in the CK. Of course, Lee was later the designated scapegoat for the Mountain Meadows Massacre and was the only person tried and executed (with BY's blessing).
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    it's a stupid argument that makes no sense in the context of lds doctrine
    Oh whatever. Revisionist history sucks no matter the context. Condemning Brigham for attitudes that were common for the time is pure folly. If it wasn't you'd probably hate your grandparents. This applies to virtually everything including race, politics, and freaky religious doctrine that wasn't only common to Mormons.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    Oh whatever. Revisionist history sucks no matter the context. Condemning Brigham for attitudes that were common for the time is pure folly. If it wasn't you'd probably hate your grandparents. This applies to virtually everything including race, politics, and freaky religious doctrine that wasn't only common to Mormons.
    my grandparents weren't prophets, seers and revelators of a church offering its members the fulness of the gospel and a direct line of revelation from god.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    5) Many of the marriages were not consummated. I believe he was sealed to his mother-in-law. Yeesh.
    6) At one point, both BY and John D. Lee were interested in a woman. BY told Lee that if he backed off and let BY marry her, he would forever have his back and Lee would sit at his right hand in the CK. Of course, Lee was later the designated scapegoat for the Mountain Meadows Massacre and was the only person tried and executed (with BY's blessing).
    I rest my case

  17. #47
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    Oh whatever. Revisionist history sucks no matter the context. Condemning Brigham for attitudes that were common for the time is pure folly. If it wasn't you'd probably hate your grandparents. This applies to virtually everything including race, politics, and freaky religious doctrine that wasn't only common to Mormons.
    I am not going to claim that it was widespread in American society at large, but it is very much true that religious movements in America at that time were engaging in many experiments relative to marriage and sexuality. The Shakers decided that nobody should be married. There were other groups that went the other way, including plural marriage. One religious group decided that people in their community could engage in sex freely with whomever. Of course, that attracted a lot of outside curiosity to see how it was working out. A few early LDS leaders visited them and BY said they were crazy.
    Last edited by Jeff Lebowski; 02-01-2018 at 10:28 AM.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  18. #48
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I rest my case
    None of that was substantially different from what JS did.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  19. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    None of that was substantially different from what JS did.
    Nope. But we're not posting in the 'Joseph Smith was one weird cat' thread. My thoughts on him are similar, but a little more conflicted than they are on BY.

  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    my grandparents weren't prophets, seers and revelators of a church offering its members the fulness of the gospel and a direct line of revelation from god.
    Yes but were they asshats like you?

    Just like the religious leaders of today Brigham probably wasn't commanded in all things nor was he miraculously relieved of his experience and bias when he became prophet. Just like JS he's a flawed character who was most likely doing his best. I'm going to cut both of them some slack.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I am not going to claim that it was widespread in American society at large, but it is very much true that religious movements in America at that time were engaging in many experiments relative to marriage and sexuality. The Shakers decided that nobody should be married. There were other groups that went the other way, including plural marriage. One religious group decided that people in their community could engage in sex freely with whomever. Of course, that attracted a lot of outside curiosity to see how it was working out. A few early LDS leaders visited them and BY said they were crazy.
    That still happens today in religion, sort of... Sigheh is a temporary marriage in Islam. They can last a little as a few minutes. I guess it depends on how quick they are.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  22. #52
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    The Missionary Pal thread has some interesting stuff I found from BY in the Journal of Discourses.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    That still happens today in religion, sort of... Sigheh is a temporary marriage in Islam. They can last a little as a few minutes. I guess it depends on how quick they are.
    Speak for yourself Kimosabe.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  24. #54
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    Speak for yourself Kimosabe.
    There are temporary marriages of as little as a few minutes out there so exquisite that if you had an inkling of the kind of temporary marriages you are missing, you would be crushed and debilitated under an intolerable weight of despair and regret.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    There are temporary marriages of as little as a few minutes out there so exquisite that if you had an inkling of the kind of temporary marriages you are missing, you would be crushed and debilitated under an intolerable weight of despair and regret.
    SU y tu podéis obtener una pinche habitacion!
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  26. #56
    Princeps Inter Pares
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    SU y tu podéis obtener una pinche habitacion!
    Ooh, mixing tu and vosotros-- he really knows how to get under your skin. Foul play, man.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  27. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    Ooh, mixing tu and vosotros
    Not really.
    Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

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  28. #58
    Local Character clackamascoug's Avatar
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    I feel obligated to bring a sense of normalcy to this jumbled up perspective of polygamy and polyandry.

    In my attempts to justify the debacle of polygamy et al., I believe that JS misinterpreted the "Grand Vision of the Prophets" and when it was his turn to view The Lord's video production (as did Moses, Lehi and Nephi and others) which could have been titled: World's Without End; Alpha to Omega, Joseph walked out of the theater wondering what he had just seen - and with little education - he got lost about the part of multiple dimensions of existence - and focused on the conclusion where he was sealed to multiple women (perhaps hundreds or thousands) in the realm of the Celestial Kingdom. Thinking - "if that's the case" - I'd better get busy... Joseph started perusing woman to make the middle meet the end. Thus a simple mistake of understanding turned into a peeled off thread of a rouge dimension where we are living out the effects of that moment.

    In another dimension Joseph "got it right" and polygamy never existed and he died of old age in California with Sam Brannen as the Second prophet of the Church, and we would all be fans of SBU Football (The Fighting Merchants) in the Bay Area.

    Before making fun of me... come up with a plausible explanation on your own on regarding the doctrine of polygamy.

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  29. #59
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    SU y tu podéis obtener una pinche habitacion!
    Look, man, if you go more than 10-12 minutes, you're just gonna chafe or get your pubic hair all knotted together, unless you're all clean shaven like a child, or like some porn star from Kentucky with a bottle of Dr. Bronner's and a Braun Series 7 on his nightstand, which, in that case, you probably take so damn long because you slip out every 4 or 5 thrusts and have to start all over. Either that or you've got a mirror up in there, Narcissus. So, a half hour to an hour of foreplay is fine, but the actual act isn't a marathon...it's the titillating culmination of all the seductive artistry, technique, and imagination you put into the symphony you directed, finally allowing yourselves to combine into the spasming, rollicking, contracting waves of ecstatic, erotic, emotional, trusting oneness. There's no clock on that. Only life and love.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  30. #60
    𐐐𐐄𐐢𐐆𐐤𐐝 𐐓𐐅 𐐜 𐐢𐐃𐐡𐐔 Uncle Ted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Just for the record (since we all know this and it's been rehashed over and over), here's a list of his doctrines that have been changed or rejected by the church:
    Polygamy
    Polyandry
    Blood Atonement
    Adam-God doctrine
    Blacks and the priesthood
    I don't think we have rejected the Adam-God doctrine... we still have a hymn about it.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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