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  • #16
    Originally posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    What doctrine or governing philosophy of his has the church not rejected? Here is a list for starters, I'm sure others can come up with more:

    Continued expansion of temple building. With the construction of the Endowment House in SLC and his control over the administration of the ordinances, BY probably has had as much lasting influence on the current temple ceremony as JS has.
    Migration west
    The way succession of prophets currently works
    Perpetual Emigration Fund (concept brought back recently in the Perpetual Education Fund)
    Global expansion of missionary work and publishing the BoM in multiple languages
    Church-owned businesses such as Deseret News, ZCMI, etc.
    Relief Society (reorganized under BY)
    Young Men
    Young Women
    The great BYU itself
    Primary
    Pearl of Great Price accepted as a standard work

    I wouldn't agree with the statement that he was a terribly flawed man or a terribly flawed church president. He definitely had flaws but I'm not sure he was any more flawed than the the rest of us. If we faced the same responsibilities and challenges as he did our flaws might be as evident as his but probably not greater or less than his.
    I should have known that my overly generalized statement would have been challenged. It's a fair rebuke.

    I'll give you credit for most of those as church policies influenced by him. As far as non-doctrinal influences, I was speaking generally of his theocratic governing of the state. I think his political leadership was spotty, though he should get credit for continually trying new industries. My main point here was that his philosophy of governance (for example, theocracy and united order) has been rejected by the church. Furthermore, there were real-life consequences for his autocratic rule. His insistence on fighting the federal government for decades proved disastrous for just about every aspect of life in Utah. I doubt the worst that has been said concerning him and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but he was very complicit in the cover-up. His protection and then scapegoating of John Lee was at best unethical.

    Just for the record (since we all know this and it's been rehashed over and over), here's a list of his doctrines that have been changed or rejected by the church:
    Polygamy
    Polyandry
    Blood Atonement
    Adam-God doctrine
    Blacks and the priesthood

    I am sure there are more, but I gave away my Dad's Journal of Discourses.

    I agree with your temple and missionary examples. Those are lasting legacies. Not sure about the PoGP. Wasn't that canonized after he died?

    Like you say, context is important. BY faced a lot of problems for decades and probably did the best he could, given the circumstances. However, he really went off the rails doctrinally. The fact that the church rejects what he used to teach is not in dispute. Presidents have been wrong in teachings before, but I think Young took the fringiest aspects of Mormonism and went crazy with them. Furthermore, I am convinced that he taught and did immoral things, contrary to what the church considers gospel. So I disagree that he wasn't any more flawed than the rest of us. I think he fails a comparison with the current crop of church leaders. I don't see them (or most lay people for that matter) making those same errors I believe he did.
    "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
    "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
    - SeattleUte

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
      I should have known that my overly generalized statement would have been challenged. It's a fair rebuke.

      I'll give you credit for most of those as church policies influenced by him. As far as non-doctrinal influences, I was speaking generally of his theocratic governing of the state. I think his political leadership was spotty, though he should get credit for continually trying new industries. My main point here was that his philosophy of governance (for example, theocracy and united order) has been rejected by the church. Furthermore, there were real-life consequences for his autocratic rule. His insistence on fighting the federal government for decades proved disastrous for just about every aspect of life in Utah. I doubt the worst that has been said concerning him and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but he was very complicit in the cover-up. His protection and then scapegoating of John Lee was at best unethical.

      Just for the record (since we all know this and it's been rehashed over and over), here's a list of his doctrines that have been changed or rejected by the church:
      Polygamy
      Polyandry
      Blood Atonement
      Adam-God doctrine
      Blacks and the priesthood

      I am sure there are more, but I gave away my Dad's Journal of Discourses.

      I agree with your temple and missionary examples. Those are lasting legacies. Not sure about the PoGP. Wasn't that canonized after he died?

      Like you say, context is important. BY faced a lot of problems for decades and probably did the best he could, given the circumstances. However, he really went off the rails doctrinally. The fact that the church rejects what he used to teach is not in dispute. Presidents have been wrong in teachings before, but I think Young took the fringiest aspects of Mormonism and went crazy with them. Furthermore, I am convinced that he taught and did immoral things, contrary to what the church considers gospel. So I disagree that he wasn't any more flawed than the rest of us. I think he fails a comparison with the current crop of church leaders. I don't see them (or most lay people for that matter) making those same errors I believe he did.
      The single biggest burden that he saddled the LDS Church with was the racist policies on blacks and the priesthood. Imagine how progressive the LDS Church could have been perceived as if that policy had never developed.
      "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

      Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Topper View Post
        The single biggest burden that he saddled the LDS Church with was the racist policies on blacks and the priesthood. Imagine how progressive the LDS Church could have been perceived as if that policy had never developed.
        Who do we blame for our views on gays then?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sizzle View Post
          Who do we blame for our views on gays then?
          Jehovah.
          "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
          - Goatnapper'96

          Comment


          • #20
            I'm like LeBron James.
            -mpfunk

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Pelado View Post
              Jehovah.
              That guy in the old testament sure was uptight. I wish he could have met Jesus, who totally loved Paul, one of the most famous gay dudes of his time.
              Last edited by Flystripper; 01-31-2018, 03:34 PM.
              Dyslexics are teople poo...

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sizzle View Post
                Who do we blame for our views on gays then?
                Oaks and Bednar.


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
                  That guy in the old testament sure was uptight. I wish he could have met Jesus, who totally loved Paul, one of the most famous gay dudes of his time.
                  Oh brother.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
                    Oh brother.
                    HLS

                    Dyslexics are teople poo...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
                      HLS

                      You have very low standards for trolling if an "oh brother" is all you were fishing for.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I have low standards. Period.
                        Dyslexics are teople poo...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          As a non-disenfranchised former member (NDFM trademark pending), and in the spirit with which I think JL was sharing, let me simply say this: That’s some prettty funny shit right there.

                          I won’t invoke the “I” word for fear of reprisal but it sure does make reason stare.
                          "Either evolution or intelligent design can account for the athlete, but neither can account for the sports fan." - Robert Brault

                          "Once I seen the trades go down and the other guys signed elsewhere," he said, "I knew it was my time now." - Derrick Favors

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                            I should have known that my overly generalized statement would have been challenged. It's a fair rebuke.

                            I'll give you credit for most of those as church policies influenced by him. As far as non-doctrinal influences, I was speaking generally of his theocratic governing of the state. I think his political leadership was spotty, though he should get credit for continually trying new industries. My main point here was that his philosophy of governance (for example, theocracy and united order) has been rejected by the church. Furthermore, there were real-life consequences for his autocratic rule. His insistence on fighting the federal government for decades proved disastrous for just about every aspect of life in Utah. I doubt the worst that has been said concerning him and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but he was very complicit in the cover-up. His protection and then scapegoating of John Lee was at best unethical.

                            Just for the record (since we all know this and it's been rehashed over and over), here's a list of his doctrines that have been changed or rejected by the church:
                            Polygamy
                            Polyandry
                            Blood Atonement
                            Adam-God doctrine
                            Blacks and the priesthood

                            I am sure there are more, but I gave away my Dad's Journal of Discourses.

                            I agree with your temple and missionary examples. Those are lasting legacies. Not sure about the PoGP. Wasn't that canonized after he died?

                            Like you say, context is important. BY faced a lot of problems for decades and probably did the best he could, given the circumstances. However, he really went off the rails doctrinally. The fact that the church rejects what he used to teach is not in dispute. Presidents have been wrong in teachings before, but I think Young took the fringiest aspects of Mormonism and went crazy with them. Furthermore, I am convinced that he taught and did immoral things, contrary to what the church considers gospel. So I disagree that he wasn't any more flawed than the rest of us. I think he fails a comparison with the current crop of church leaders. I don't see them (or most lay people for that matter) making those same errors I believe he did.
                            Polygamy and polyandry were not BY's doctrines. He lived them but he surely did not come up with them. The PoGP was canonized in 1880 or 1881, but a lot of it was already published somewhere else (an earlier version of the noncannonized PoGP?).

                            Originally posted by Topper View Post
                            The single biggest burden that he saddled the LDS Church with was the racist policies on blacks and the priesthood. Imagine how progressive the LDS Church could have been perceived as if that policy had never developed.
                            This, a thousand times this. My single-biggest hang up with the church is that this doctrine/policy ever existed. It runs directly contrary to Peter's dream in the NT, at least how I interrpet that dream.
                            "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                              Polygamy and polyandry were not BY's doctrines. He lived them but he surely did not come up with them.
                              Not according to this book!
                              ppc18000-1-lg.gif

                              In all seriousness, Young is responsible for bringing polygamy out of the shadows and making it a central tenet of Mormon doctrine. Polyandry less so, but he still practiced it. It would have been too much to ask him to realize the profound affects polygamy would have on the church and make a 'course correction'. After all, he believed in it. But, he was the president. He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

                              He wasn't the originator of the doctrine, but he did much more than Joseph Smith to canonize it.
                              "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                              "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                              - SeattleUte

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
                                I have low standards. Period.
                                lol. love me some flystripper.
                                I'm like LeBron James.
                                -mpfunk

                                Comment

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