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Thread: Brother Brigham was one interesting cat

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Default Brother Brigham was one interesting cat

    I am currently reading the John G. Turner bio on Brigham Young.

    https://www.amazon.com/Brigham-Young...oung+biography

    Really fascinating stuff. I thought it might be fun to share a few excerpts as I go. I ran across this tidbit the other day:

    In his later recollections he described himself as a fiercely independent and somewhat headstrong young man. “I Am naturally opposed to being crowded,” he later commented, “and am opposed to any person who undertakes to force me to do this or not do that.” As a young man he both refused to drink and refused to sign a temperance pledge, even when his father urged him to do the latter. “No sir,” he replied, “If I sign the temperance pledge, I feel that I am bound, and I wish to do just right without being bound to do it.”
    In other words .... (wait for it) .... Brigham Young refused to sign an honor code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I am currently reading the John G. Turner bio on Brigham Young.

    https://www.amazon.com/Brigham-Young...oung+biography

    Really fascinating stuff. I thought it might be fun to share a few excerpts as I go. I ran across this tidbit the other day:



    In other words .... (wait for it) .... Brigham Young refused to sign an honor code.

    Let me know if the biography has anything about his whiskey distillery and whiskey street. I think more information on that would be fascinating.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
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    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    I read that book a while back. Fascinating history but I don’t remember a lot of specifics other than him swearing a ton and ordering the chasing (sometimes killing) of the native Americans in the salt lake valley. I did come away from the book thinking that he was the perfect person to run the church through that time in spite of his personal faults (racism, etc) and some abhorrent actions. Hey, prophets aren’t perfect, right?


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    𐐐𐐄𐐢𐐆𐐤𐐝 𐐓𐐅 𐐜 𐐢𐐃𐐡𐐔 Uncle Ted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I am currently reading the John G. Turner bio on Brigham Young.

    https://www.amazon.com/Brigham-Young...oung+biography

    Really fascinating stuff. I thought it might be fun to share a few excerpts as I go. I ran across this tidbit the other day:



    In other words .... (wait for it) .... Brigham Young refused to sign an honor code.

    Does this book give any insight what he was thinking to do with the steam engine that he was attempted to acquire? My guess is he wanted a steam boat so he could cruise around on the great salt lake... Hmm, I wonder if Shaka is related to BY.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    I read 'American Moses' while at BYU. Back then I think it was considered the definitive BY work. I wonder how it stacks up to the Turner biography.

    When I read it, I had a similar reaction to Moliere's. Kind of like, he may have been an SOB, but he was the Lord's SOB! By the way, is it OK to pass judgment on him now? I mean, most of us agree he was a terribly flawed man and church president. What doctrine or governing philosophy of his has the church not rejected? I understand the variably-shaded blinders that many have with Joseph Smith, but we're good with the harsh verdict on BY, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I read 'American Moses' while at BYU. Back then I think it was considered the definitive BY work. I wonder how it stacks up to the Turner biography.

    When I read it, I had a similar reaction to Moliere's. Kind of like, he may have been an SOB, but he was the Lord's SOB! By the way, is it OK to pass judgment on him now? I mean, most of us agree he was a terribly flawed man and church president. What doctrine or governing philosophy of his has the church not rejected? I understand the variably-shaded blinders that many have with Joseph Smith, but we're good with the harsh verdict on BY, right?

    It is not okay to criticize leaders even if the criticism is valid.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
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    Senior Member Katy Lied's Avatar
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    Does the book talk about why he wanted to create a whole new alphabet and language? Was there really a problem with communication in the Salt Lake Valley? The SL Trib called BY illiterate in his obit; why would BY value letters and communication when he had no need for it?

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    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I read 'American Moses' while at BYU. Back then I think it was considered the definitive BY work. I wonder how it stacks up to the Turner biography.

    When I read it, I had a similar reaction to Moliere's. Kind of like, he may have been an SOB, but he was the Lord's SOB! By the way, is it OK to pass judgment on him now? I mean, most of us agree he was a terribly flawed man and church president. What doctrine or governing philosophy of his has the church not rejected? I understand the variably-shaded blinders that many have with Joseph Smith, but we're good with the harsh verdict on BY, right?
    What doctrine or governing philosophy of his has the church not rejected? Here is a list for starters, I'm sure others can come up with more:

    Continued expansion of temple building. With the construction of the Endowment House in SLC and his control over the administration of the ordinances, BY probably has had as much lasting influence on the current temple ceremony as JS has.
    Migration west
    The way succession of prophets currently works
    Perpetual Emigration Fund (concept brought back recently in the Perpetual Education Fund)
    Global expansion of missionary work and publishing the BoM in multiple languages
    Church-owned businesses such as Deseret News, ZCMI, etc.
    Relief Society (reorganized under BY)
    Young Men
    Young Women
    The great BYU itself
    Primary
    Pearl of Great Price accepted as a standard work

    I wouldn't agree with the statement that he was a terribly flawed man or a terribly flawed church president. He definitely had flaws but I'm not sure he was any more flawed than the the rest of us. If we faced the same responsibilities and challenges as he did our flaws might be as evident as his but probably not greater or less than his.

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Does this book give any insight what he was thinking to do with the steam engine that he was attempted to acquire? My guess is he wanted a steam boat so he could cruise around on the great salt lake... Hmm, I wonder if Shaka is related to BY.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    Does the book talk about why he wanted to create a whole new alphabet and language? Was there really a problem with communication in the Salt Lake Valley? The SL Trib called BY illiterate in his obit; why would BY value letters and communication when he had no need for it?
    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Let me know if the biography has anything about his whiskey distillery and whiskey street. I think more information on that would be fascinating.
    These are great questions. I will return and report!
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    What doctrine or governing philosophy of his has the church not rejected? Here is a list for starters, I'm sure others can come up with more:

    Continued expansion of temple building. With the construction of the Endowment House in SLC and his control over the administration of the ordinances, BY probably has had as much lasting influence on the current temple ceremony as JS has.
    Migration west
    The way succession of prophets currently works
    Perpetual Emigration Fund (concept brought back recently in the Perpetual Education Fund)
    Global expansion of missionary work and publishing the BoM in multiple languages
    Church-owned businesses such as Deseret News, ZCMI, etc.
    Relief Society (reorganized under BY)
    Young Men
    Young Women
    The great BYU itself
    Primary
    Pearl of Great Price accepted as a standard work

    I wouldn't agree with the statement that he was a terribly flawed man or a terribly flawed church president. He definitely had flaws but I'm not sure he was any more flawed than the the rest of us. If we faced the same responsibilities and challenges as he did our flaws might be as evident as his but probably not greater or less than his.
    We need a mic drop smiley.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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    I had a credit on audible, so I ordered it today. Thanks for the recommendation.
    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    I had a credit on audible, so I ordered it today. Thanks for the recommendation.
    I share an audible account with my wife and daughter. My daughter read (listened to) it first, then my wife. They both processed it fine, but my wife got more worked up about the more gritty history than my daughter. It was kind of funny.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Does this book give any insight what he was thinking to do with the steam engine that he was attempted to acquire? My guess is he wanted a steam boat so he could cruise around on the great salt lake... Hmm, I wonder if Shaka is related to BY.
    No relation but great minds thing alike.

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    I like Brigham Young despite the nagging feeling he wouldn't be a fan of mine at all...
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    What doctrine or governing philosophy of his has the church not rejected? Here is a list for starters, I'm sure others can come up with more:

    Continued expansion of temple building. With the construction of the Endowment House in SLC and his control over the administration of the ordinances, BY probably has had as much lasting influence on the current temple ceremony as JS has.
    Migration west
    The way succession of prophets currently works
    Perpetual Emigration Fund (concept brought back recently in the Perpetual Education Fund)
    Global expansion of missionary work and publishing the BoM in multiple languages
    Church-owned businesses such as Deseret News, ZCMI, etc.
    Relief Society (reorganized under BY)
    Young Men
    Young Women
    The great BYU itself
    Primary
    Pearl of Great Price accepted as a standard work

    I wouldn't agree with the statement that he was a terribly flawed man or a terribly flawed church president. He definitely had flaws but I'm not sure he was any more flawed than the the rest of us. If we faced the same responsibilities and challenges as he did our flaws might be as evident as his but probably not greater or less than his.
    Counter-argument: he also founded the University of Deseret, to his everlasting ignominy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    What doctrine or governing philosophy of his has the church not rejected? Here is a list for starters, I'm sure others can come up with more:

    Continued expansion of temple building. With the construction of the Endowment House in SLC and his control over the administration of the ordinances, BY probably has had as much lasting influence on the current temple ceremony as JS has.
    Migration west
    The way succession of prophets currently works
    Perpetual Emigration Fund (concept brought back recently in the Perpetual Education Fund)
    Global expansion of missionary work and publishing the BoM in multiple languages
    Church-owned businesses such as Deseret News, ZCMI, etc.
    Relief Society (reorganized under BY)
    Young Men
    Young Women
    The great BYU itself
    Primary
    Pearl of Great Price accepted as a standard work

    I wouldn't agree with the statement that he was a terribly flawed man or a terribly flawed church president. He definitely had flaws but I'm not sure he was any more flawed than the the rest of us. If we faced the same responsibilities and challenges as he did our flaws might be as evident as his but probably not greater or less than his.
    I should have known that my overly generalized statement would have been challenged. It's a fair rebuke.

    I'll give you credit for most of those as church policies influenced by him. As far as non-doctrinal influences, I was speaking generally of his theocratic governing of the state. I think his political leadership was spotty, though he should get credit for continually trying new industries. My main point here was that his philosophy of governance (for example, theocracy and united order) has been rejected by the church. Furthermore, there were real-life consequences for his autocratic rule. His insistence on fighting the federal government for decades proved disastrous for just about every aspect of life in Utah. I doubt the worst that has been said concerning him and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but he was very complicit in the cover-up. His protection and then scapegoating of John Lee was at best unethical.

    Just for the record (since we all know this and it's been rehashed over and over), here's a list of his doctrines that have been changed or rejected by the church:
    Polygamy
    Polyandry
    Blood Atonement
    Adam-God doctrine
    Blacks and the priesthood

    I am sure there are more, but I gave away my Dad's Journal of Discourses.

    I agree with your temple and missionary examples. Those are lasting legacies. Not sure about the PoGP. Wasn't that canonized after he died?

    Like you say, context is important. BY faced a lot of problems for decades and probably did the best he could, given the circumstances. However, he really went off the rails doctrinally. The fact that the church rejects what he used to teach is not in dispute. Presidents have been wrong in teachings before, but I think Young took the fringiest aspects of Mormonism and went crazy with them. Furthermore, I am convinced that he taught and did immoral things, contrary to what the church considers gospel. So I disagree that he wasn't any more flawed than the rest of us. I think he fails a comparison with the current crop of church leaders. I don't see them (or most lay people for that matter) making those same errors I believe he did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I should have known that my overly generalized statement would have been challenged. It's a fair rebuke.

    I'll give you credit for most of those as church policies influenced by him. As far as non-doctrinal influences, I was speaking generally of his theocratic governing of the state. I think his political leadership was spotty, though he should get credit for continually trying new industries. My main point here was that his philosophy of governance (for example, theocracy and united order) has been rejected by the church. Furthermore, there were real-life consequences for his autocratic rule. His insistence on fighting the federal government for decades proved disastrous for just about every aspect of life in Utah. I doubt the worst that has been said concerning him and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but he was very complicit in the cover-up. His protection and then scapegoating of John Lee was at best unethical.

    Just for the record (since we all know this and it's been rehashed over and over), here's a list of his doctrines that have been changed or rejected by the church:
    Polygamy
    Polyandry
    Blood Atonement
    Adam-God doctrine
    Blacks and the priesthood

    I am sure there are more, but I gave away my Dad's Journal of Discourses.

    I agree with your temple and missionary examples. Those are lasting legacies. Not sure about the PoGP. Wasn't that canonized after he died?

    Like you say, context is important. BY faced a lot of problems for decades and probably did the best he could, given the circumstances. However, he really went off the rails doctrinally. The fact that the church rejects what he used to teach is not in dispute. Presidents have been wrong in teachings before, but I think Young took the fringiest aspects of Mormonism and went crazy with them. Furthermore, I am convinced that he taught and did immoral things, contrary to what the church considers gospel. So I disagree that he wasn't any more flawed than the rest of us. I think he fails a comparison with the current crop of church leaders. I don't see them (or most lay people for that matter) making those same errors I believe he did.
    The single biggest burden that he saddled the LDS Church with was the racist policies on blacks and the priesthood. Imagine how progressive the LDS Church could have been perceived as if that policy had never developed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    The single biggest burden that he saddled the LDS Church with was the racist policies on blacks and the priesthood. Imagine how progressive the LDS Church could have been perceived as if that policy had never developed.
    Who do we blame for our views on gays then?

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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sizzle View Post
    Who do we blame for our views on gays then?
    Jehovah.
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    I'm like LeBron James.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Jehovah.
    That guy in the old testament sure was uptight. I wish he could have met Jesus, who totally loved Paul, one of the most famous gay dudes of his time.
    Last edited by Flystripper; 01-31-2018 at 03:34 PM.
    Dyslexics are teople poo...

  22. #22
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sizzle View Post
    Who do we blame for our views on gays then?
    Oaks and Bednar.


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    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flystripper View Post
    That guy in the old testament sure was uptight. I wish he could have met Jesus, who totally loved Paul, one of the most famous gay dudes of his time.
    Oh brother.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    Oh brother.
    HLS

    Dyslexics are teople poo...

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    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flystripper View Post
    HLS

    You have very low standards for trolling if an "oh brother" is all you were fishing for.

  26. #26

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    I have low standards. Period.
    Dyslexics are teople poo...

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    Senior Member Blueintheface's Avatar
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    As a non-disenfranchised former member (NDFM trademark pending), and in the spirit with which I think JL was sharing, let me simply say this: That’s some prettty funny shit right there.

    I won’t invoke the “I” word for fear of reprisal but it sure does make reason stare.
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    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I should have known that my overly generalized statement would have been challenged. It's a fair rebuke.

    I'll give you credit for most of those as church policies influenced by him. As far as non-doctrinal influences, I was speaking generally of his theocratic governing of the state. I think his political leadership was spotty, though he should get credit for continually trying new industries. My main point here was that his philosophy of governance (for example, theocracy and united order) has been rejected by the church. Furthermore, there were real-life consequences for his autocratic rule. His insistence on fighting the federal government for decades proved disastrous for just about every aspect of life in Utah. I doubt the worst that has been said concerning him and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but he was very complicit in the cover-up. His protection and then scapegoating of John Lee was at best unethical.

    Just for the record (since we all know this and it's been rehashed over and over), here's a list of his doctrines that have been changed or rejected by the church:
    Polygamy
    Polyandry
    Blood Atonement
    Adam-God doctrine
    Blacks and the priesthood

    I am sure there are more, but I gave away my Dad's Journal of Discourses.

    I agree with your temple and missionary examples. Those are lasting legacies. Not sure about the PoGP. Wasn't that canonized after he died?

    Like you say, context is important. BY faced a lot of problems for decades and probably did the best he could, given the circumstances. However, he really went off the rails doctrinally. The fact that the church rejects what he used to teach is not in dispute. Presidents have been wrong in teachings before, but I think Young took the fringiest aspects of Mormonism and went crazy with them. Furthermore, I am convinced that he taught and did immoral things, contrary to what the church considers gospel. So I disagree that he wasn't any more flawed than the rest of us. I think he fails a comparison with the current crop of church leaders. I don't see them (or most lay people for that matter) making those same errors I believe he did.
    Polygamy and polyandry were not BY's doctrines. He lived them but he surely did not come up with them. The PoGP was canonized in 1880 or 1881, but a lot of it was already published somewhere else (an earlier version of the noncannonized PoGP?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    The single biggest burden that he saddled the LDS Church with was the racist policies on blacks and the priesthood. Imagine how progressive the LDS Church could have been perceived as if that policy had never developed.
    This, a thousand times this. My single-biggest hang up with the church is that this doctrine/policy ever existed. It runs directly contrary to Peter's dream in the NT, at least how I interrpet that dream.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Polygamy and polyandry were not BY's doctrines. He lived them but he surely did not come up with them.
    Not according to this book!
    ppc18000-1-lg.gif

    In all seriousness, Young is responsible for bringing polygamy out of the shadows and making it a central tenet of Mormon doctrine. Polyandry less so, but he still practiced it. It would have been too much to ask him to realize the profound affects polygamy would have on the church and make a 'course correction'. After all, he believed in it. But, he was the president. He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

    He wasn't the originator of the doctrine, but he did much more than Joseph Smith to canonize it.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flystripper View Post
    I have low standards. Period.
    lol. love me some flystripper.
    I'm like LeBron James.
    -mpfunk

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