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  • Originally posted by Topper View Post
    What Oaks & Company seem insensitive to or unaware of is how far general society has moved away from the idea that sex or homosexual sex is sinful. Society has accepted as a norm that sexual activity is normal and healthy, not inherently sinful unless within the bounds of straight marriage. And they have no explanation why people are oriented in a same sex manner. Without an explanation for such a basic human condition but while remaining so adamant that you must behave in a manner contrary to your core nature seems harsh, hateful and inconsiderate. It just seems to simplify why some people should be denied a basic human need without any help or compassion.

    Did you see the Reddit secreted videos of Oaks? I'll admit the way they came out was under-handed and wouldn't recommend anybody do that, but in some of the footage I saw, Oaks had a weird line of question from this "expert" on the "gay agenda."
    I guess I don't really understand what you are trying to say. Is "Oaks & Company" supposed to move away from what the Church has taught (and what they believe God has taught) because society disagrees with them? If you're just trying to explain why some would find what Oaks teaches to be intolerant and hateful, I certainly understand that. But I don't understand at all the critique that Oaks and the Church leadership as a whole are wrong not to have "evolved" with general society on the issue. I can certainly understand how someone could disagree with the Church's stance on homosexual behavior being sinful and find their teachings to be intolerant. I can't understand how anyone could expect the Church, or any of its leaders, to simply throw out decades (if not centuries) of established doctrine because of relatively recent developments in the views of "general society." I would reject the Church in a heartbeat if that happened, even though it would probably make my life much easier.

    I haven't seen the Reddit videos. I'll look them up. If they are anything like Oak's "incredibly divisive" talk from last conference, I'm guessing I'll be underwhelmed.

    Comment


    • Did you reject the Church after decades of talks claiming Blacks could not have the priesthood?
      "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

      Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Topper View Post
        Did you reject the Church after decades of talks claiming Blacks could not have the priesthood?
        Do you have a number on those talks? Or even an example?
        Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

        "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

        GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by falafel View Post
          Do you have a number on those talks? Or even an example?
          I have read them, and you could research them if you so wished, starting with Brigham Young up through Mark E. Peterson if you so wished. But no I didn't bother to archive them once SWK changed the policy. In any event, here is one I remember, and I will provide you different ones when I have a break.

          http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...dandblacks.htm
          "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

          Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by falafel View Post
            Do you have a number on those talks? Or even an example?
            Here is a link to a Mark E. Peterson discussion and talk.

            http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Mark-E...Race-Relations
            "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

            Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

            Comment


            • Orson Pratt taught blacks were less valiant.

              Matthew Bowman (2012). The Mormon People. Random House. p. 176.
              "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

              Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

              Comment


              • It appeared as early as 1908 in the Liahona.

                Harris, Matthew L.; Bringhurst, Newell G. (2015). The Mormon Church and Blacks: A Documentary History. Chicago: University of Illinois Press. ISBN 978-0-252-08121-7.
                "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

                Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

                Comment


                • Joseph Fielding Smith supported the idea in his 1931 book The Way to Perfection, stating that the priesthood restriction on black was a "punishment" for actions in the pre-existence.

                  Terryl L. Givens; Reid L. Neilson (12 August 2014). The Columbia Sourcebook of Mormons in the United States. Columbia University Press. p. 246. ISBN 978-0-231-14942-6. "that the Negro race, for instance, have been placed under restrictions because of their attitude in the world of spirits, few will doubt. It cannot be looked upon as just that they should be deprived of the power of the Priesthood without it being a punishment for some act, or acts, performed before they were born."
                  "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

                  Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

                  Comment


                  • Those were the samples I found upon a quick search.
                    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

                    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by UVACoug View Post
                      I'm sorry to dominate this thread, but I wanted to add one thing. As many of you know, I am gay. Shortly after I came out to my parents (about a year after getting back from my mission), the Church published this interview with Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman regarding "Same-Gender Attraction" (their term):

                      https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/artic...der-attraction

                      At the time, I was still trying to figure out exactly how to reconcile my testimony (strong at the time) with my sexual attraction to men. I can't tell you how comforting this "interview" was for me--especially the comments made by Elder Oaks. I think my legalistic mind is naturally inclined to appreciate Elder Oaks' manner of speaking, but the very simple way in which he laid out the doctrine in this interview really made me feel like I could find a way to reconcile my testimony and sexual orientation and find a place in the Church. And, sincerely, it made me feel loved and understood by God and by Church leaders. I felt at the time (and now) that Elder Oaks had been inspired to say these things directly for my benefit. This part, in particular, was comforting:



                      I have a cousin who had come out shortly before I did who was basically disowned by his family (interestingly, his family has since embraced him and left the Church). My parents did not react the same way, but at the time the interview really gave me some comfort on that issue anyways.

                      Having re-read this interview this morning, I can see that there are numerous things that were said, even in the excerpt I quoted above, that funk (and people that share his views) could easily characterize as bigoted, hateful, and intolerant. And honestly, given my changed perspective, I might agree that some of the way things are framed in the interview could have been said in a more sensitive, loving manner.

                      But when the interview came out, I remember feeling like it represented a pretty significant sea-change in the way the Church was approaching the LBGT "issue." Not that it was that inconsistent with prior teaching, but just that the Church was talking about it at all, let alone in such a nuanced manner.

                      Thus, I find the idea that President Oaks is a bigoted, intolerant hardliner that was put in the First Presidency to stamp out any semblance of tolerance for gay people that might have been fostered by President Uchtdorf to be beyond laughable. And the idea that a general conference talk where Oaks literally just read the Family Proclamation from the pulpit is irrefutable proof of his profound hatred for the LGBT community falls far short of passing the smell test.
                      Thanks for sharing your perspective and thoughts. Very helpful to me to hear your insights.

                      Comment


                      • DFU gets his assignments: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/artic...elder-uchtdorf

                        The assignments given to Elder Uchtdorf include chair of the Missionary Executive Council, chair of the Correlation Executive Council and the primary contact for the Europe and Europe East Areas.
                        "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

                        Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Topper View Post
                          Those were the samples I found upon a quick search.
                          Thanks.
                          Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

                          "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

                          GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DrumNFeather View Post

                            lol. I can already hear the Dehlinite spin: "Elder U, go down and learn how correlation works in the Church. Once you have a better understanding of correlation, maybe then you'll be ready for the First Presidency."
                            Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

                            There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Donuthole View Post

                              lol. I can already hear the Dehlinite spin: "Elder U, go down and learn how correlation works in the Church. Once you have a better understanding of correlation, maybe then you'll be ready for the First Presidency."
                              I'm ready for a "Teachings of Dieter" lesson manual...Chapter One: Hair Care.
                              "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

                              Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DrumNFeather View Post
                                When I read "DFU" in these threads, for some reason in my brain I always hear it come out the same way Goatnapper uses "TFD" or "JFM".

                                Comment

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