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Thread: I am declaring my independence

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyone View Post
    in principle I agree with you, but he level of Military spending IS discretionary. Do we really need to spend $632 Billion or will $500B do or do we need $800B

    Just for an example - Do we need 10 Carrier Task Groups or can we get by with 8 or do we need to increase them to 12
    In any government contracting there will be mistakes. In terms of military spending by GDP the IS is at 3.3 percent which is not extreme.
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  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    What I would have given for a national party to rig the nomination against Trump...


    Parties can employ whatever rules they want for nomination. It's a private group trying to unite behind someone to run in the general election. They could put up more than one candidate if they wanted to. It's not the same thing as the laws that govern a general election.
    Last edited by BlueK; 01-11-2018 at 07:53 AM.

  3. #63
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post


    Parties can employ whatever rules they want for nomination. It's a private group trying to unite behind someone to run in the general election. They could put up more than one candidate if they wanted to. It's not the same thing as the laws that govern a general election.
    This is not true. Elections, including primary elections, are typically governed by Voting Rights acts and other federal protections. Moreover, the process once in place cannot be changed on a whim simply because some in power dont like a candidate. That would violate due process and other rights. WHile the general elections are more broadly protected, it is incorrect to say a party can do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, especially in response to a candidate that some of them dont like. This is precisely why what the democrats did for Clinton is improper.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    This is not true. Elections, including primary elections, are typically governed by Voting Rights acts and other federal protections. Moreover, the process once in place cannot be changed on a whim simply because some in power dont like a candidate. That would violate due process and other rights. WHile the general elections are more broadly protected, it is incorrect to say a party can do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, especially in response to a candidate that some of them dont like. This is precisely why what the democrats did for Clinton is improper.
    I didn't say anything about changing things on a whim. Also, did the dems really do that, or do they just have rules in place that allow for superdelegates and other things to stack the deck from the get-go against an outsider type of candidate if they want to? You can argue whether that is fair or not, but they followed their own rules. I am certainly no fan of Clinton, but technically Bernie isn't even a democrat. If he can't even declare himself a member of the party he's seeking the nomination from, does he really have a claim for "fair" treatment? I'm not sure about that. Certainly he was a nicer, more honorable person than Clinton, as wacko as some of his economic ideas are.

    But I do think the nominating process in general in both parties is pretty stupid.
    Last edited by BlueK; 01-11-2018 at 09:38 AM.

  5. #65
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    I didn't say anything about changing things on a whim. Also, did the dems really do that, or do they just have rules in place that allow for superdelegates and other things to stack the deck from the get-go against an outsider type of candidate if they want to? You can argue whether that is fair or not, but they followed their own rules. I am certainly no fan of Clinton, but technically Bernie isn't even a democrat. If he can't even declare himself a member of the party he's seeking the nomination from, does he really have a claim for "fair" treatment? I'm not sure about that. Certainly he was a nicer, more honorable person than Clinton, as wacko as some of his economic ideas are.

    But I do think the nominating process in general in both parties is pretty stupid.
    Honestly its a little hard to follow what youre saying. THe discussion started with a reference to the democratic election being rigged (arguably illegally). Then NWC (who seems to stir stuff up a lot lately!) wished someone had 'rigged' the primary process/election for a different republican and then you say repubs could do whatever they want. THIS IS ALL IN THE CONTEXT OF WISHING THE REPUBS HAD DONE SOMETHING --ANYTHING-- DURING THE PRIMARY TO STOP TRUMP FROM WINNING.

    Except they can't. They are subject to state and federal laws governing these processes. Could they have set up rules in advance of Trump's appearance to make it less likely he wins? Sure. But they cant do it in the middle of the process, which is what we were talking about.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    What I would have given for a national party to rig the nomination against Trump...
    If you like rigged primaries then the democratic party is the party for you.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    If you like rigged primaries then the democratic party is the party for you.
    And from Russia with Love.
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  8. #68
    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Even if it is true that the dems are to blame more than the republicans for Trump (which I, a reasonable person, disagrees with), a sane political party would have done everything it could have to make sure he didn't end up as the candidate. The GOP didn't prevent the nomination of an abject clown. Therefore, the GOP is not a serious political party.

    And yes, the democrats nominated Hillary. But she was at least a serious candidate, despite her numerous flaws and ethical shortcomings.
    I don't think you are as reasonable as you think. In my mind systems matter and I believe that if the Republicans had cheated, broken the rules or whatever it would have taken to accomplish the goal of preventing Trump from winning, i.e. subverting the voting will of the people in our democratic primaries, I would have believed that a greater threat to our democratic system than Trump poses. But you are right if your ideology has led you to conclude that the enlightened few should make the decisions for all by ignoring the laws, rules and historical norms of elections, then the Democrat Party is the more serious national party.

    Trump was elected because plenty of people, in the right places, wanted him to be President. To not accept that the absurd election of Donald Trump is not largely rooted in the American electorate rejecting the excesses of his predecessor indicates that you are becoming relatively partisan in your thinking.

    I think Trump is an indicator of a huge problem that we, the American people, have. He is the most obvious symptom of our deeper problem and we all share in that. Trump is a great representation of what America has become. Our system was set up with the crazy idea that the most ethical, moral light would be the will of the people. Trump indicates that the people are not so bright anymore.
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    I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    I think Trump is an indicator of a huge problem that we, the American people, have. He is the most obvious symptom of our deeper problem and we all share in that. Trump is a great representation of what America has become. Our system was set up with the crazy idea that the most ethical, moral light would be the will of the people. Trump indicates that the people are not so bright anymore.
    This.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post

    I think Trump is an indicator of a huge problem that we, the American people, have. He is the most obvious symptom of our deeper problem and we all share in that. Trump is a great representation of what America has become. Our system was set up with the crazy idea that the most ethical, moral light would be the will of the people. Trump indicates that the people are not so bright anymore.
    It was also set up without universal suffrage, with an educated, wealthy, landed, elite group of men ruling over us. Had we kept that system in place, I see us being, more or less, where we are now. Sometimes I wonder if Simón Bolívar wasn't on to something when he suggested, in his Angostura Address, that the Venezuelan Congress should be bicameral, with an elected group of Representatives, and a hereditary Senate, not unlike the former House of Lords (before life peerages changed it forever).
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  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    If you like rigged primaries then the democratic party is the party for you.
    I'm not above a few backroom machinations...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    I don't think you are as reasonable as you think. In my mind systems matter and I believe that if the Republicans had cheated, broken the rules or whatever it would have taken to accomplish the goal of preventing Trump from winning, i.e. subverting the voting will of the people in our democratic primaries, I would have believed that a greater threat to our democratic system than Trump poses. But you are right if your ideology has led you to conclude that the enlightened few should make the decisions for all by ignoring the laws, rules and historical norms of elections, then the Democrat Party is the more serious national party.

    Trump was elected because plenty of people, in the right places, wanted him to be President. To not accept that the absurd election of Donald Trump is not largely rooted in the American electorate rejecting the excesses of his predecessor indicates that you are becoming relatively partisan in your thinking.

    I think Trump is an indicator of a huge problem that we, the American people, have. He is the most obvious symptom of our deeper problem and we all share in that. Trump is a great representation of what America has become. Our system was set up with the crazy idea that the most ethical, moral light would be the will of the people. Trump indicates that the people are not so bright anymore.
    Believe me, I'm super reasonable. Too reasonable, if you ask my wife. She wants to buy a house

    I stand by my allegation that at this time, the democratic party is the only serious national party right now. Whatever objections about their politics or ethics, their last two presidential candidates were clearly more serious than Trump. I don't think this is even debatable.

    I'm saying all this a little TIC, and also with some 'wishful hindsight'. I'm not advocating for any party to subvert the will of the people. I'm on record saying that the nation will survive Trump, but the GOP won't. I do think the GOP really needs to work on their primary process. If it takes some reformatting the states' schedule or even the idea of superdelegates, something has to be done. Among many other problems, there is an unrealistic expectation of republican voters early in the primary process of an easy nationalist immigration policy and an overturning of Roe v. Wade. I wish the GOP had fixed these and other problems in 2016 so the idea of President Trump would have never existed. That's my 'wishful hindsight', for lack of a better term.

    Still, there is no denying that a significant proportion of the electorate voted for Trump. And I don't think they are going anywhere. To that point, your last paragraph is dead-on.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I'm not above a few backroom machinations...



    Believe me, I'm super reasonable. Too reasonable, if you ask my wife. She wants to buy a house

    I stand by my allegation that at this time, the democratic party is the only serious national party right now. Whatever objections about their politics or ethics, their last two presidential candidates were clearly more serious than Trump. I don't think this is even debatable.

    I'm saying all this a little TIC, and also with some 'wishful hindsight'. I'm not advocating for any party to subvert the will of the people. I'm on record saying that the nation will survive Trump, but the GOP won't. I do think the GOP really needs to work on their primary process. If it takes some reformatting the states' schedule or even the idea of superdelegates, something has to be done. Among many other problems, there is an unrealistic expectation of republican voters early in the primary process of an easy nationalist immigration policy and an overturning of Roe v. Wade. I wish the GOP had fixed these and other problems in 2016 so the idea of President Trump would have never existed. That's my 'wishful hindsight', for lack of a better term.

    Still, there is no denying that a significant proportion of the electorate voted for Trump. And I don't think they are going anywhere. To that point, your last paragraph is dead-on.
    We don’t know as much about the GOP primary process because the Russians and Asssange informed us about the other party only.
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  13. #73

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    The Republicans right now have no idea how to be a governing party. That's why after November they won't be anymore for a really long time. The 35% Trump base is great for them, so they think. The problem is they've lost every independent so it's not enough to win elections in swing districts and states. It's going to be a bloodbath in November, which is what they deserve for abandoning their traditional ideas and embracing Trumpism.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    The Republicans right now have no idea how to be a governing party. That's why after November they won't be anymore for a really long time. The 35% Trump base is great for them, so they think. The problem is they've lost every independent so it's not enough to win elections in swing districts and states. It's going to be a bloodbath in November, which is what they deserve for abandoning their traditional ideas and embracing Trumpism.
    You’ve missed what others have said. The democrats forced the republicans to elect Trump because too much pc culture and too many genders, plus Hillary and the DNC. Republicans aren’t responsible for their actions.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    The Republicans right now have no idea how to be a governing party. That's why after November they won't be anymore for a really long time. The 35% Trump base is great for them, so they think. The problem is they've lost every independent so it's not enough to win elections in swing districts and states. It's going to be a bloodbath in November, which is what they deserve for abandoning their traditional ideas and embracing Trumpism.
    The way I see it the dems buy votes by increasing/creating dumbass social programs...




    The GOP'ers buy votes by lowering taxes... (remember when Ronny lowered taxes he won his re-election by one of the largest landslides in history.)

    ua37yz3id8901.jpg

    Either way we will all be screwed in the end. So I'll keep voting for the Libertarian.
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  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    The way I see it the dems buy votes by increasing/creating dumbass social programs...




    The GOP'ers buy votes by lowering taxes... (remember when Ronny lowered taxes he won his re-election by one of the largest landslides in history.)

    ua37yz3id8901.jpg

    Either way we will all be screwed in the end. So I'll keep voting for the Libertarian.
    your words at the end of the post and your pictures don't match. But Trump appreciates the pictures, especially the white nationalist friendly one. And we know he likes pictures more than reading words.

    I will say one thing about economics and Trump. The Trumpist economic ideas haven't been implemented yet. Tax cuts and deregulation are traditional Republican ideas, and that's all that has happened so far. He's hasn't had that much luck pushing through his anti-immigration and anti-trade stuff yet. Yes, he's talked about it, but done nothing to substantially change anything on those fronts yet. I don't know if the Republicans are going to bow to that by November or not, but if they do, then kiss the good economy goodbye.
    Last edited by BlueK; 01-11-2018 at 12:59 PM.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    That kind of stuff happens - when I was in the Army, my company had a jeep that was not on the books. We made sure it was out of the motor pool when ever the IG was near . I also had a couple of vehicle mounted FM radios that were not on the books. When I was in there was no war going on. With a war, that kind of stuff becomes easier.

    They were items that were supposed to have been turned in for disposal, but were just kept and repaired. They came in handy at times.
    Last edited by happyone; 01-11-2018 at 10:13 PM.

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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyone View Post
    That kind of stuff happens - when I was in the Army, my company had a jeep that was not on the books. We made sure it was out of the motor pool when ever the IG was near . I also had a couple of vehicle mounted FM radios that were not on the books.

    They were items that were supposed to have been turned in for disposal, but were just kept and repaired. They came in handy at times.
    Sounds like the plot to an episode of M*A*S*H*
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    your words at the end of the post and your pictures don't match. But Trump appreciates the pictures, especially the white nationalist friendly one. And we know he likes pictures more than reading words.

    I will say one thing about economics and Trump. The Trumpist economic ideas haven't been implemented yet. Tax cuts and deregulation are traditional Republican ideas, and that's all that has happened so far. He's hasn't had that much luck pushing through his anti-immigration and anti-trade stuff yet. Yes, he's talked about it, but done nothing to substantially change anything on those fronts yet. I don't know if the Republicans are going to bow to that by November or not, but if they do, then kiss the good economy goodbye.
    Yeah, Nancy on those bonuses companies are paying out due to the tax bill...

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  20. #80
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Yeah, Nancy on those bonuses companies are paying out due to the tax bill...

    She's an idiot.
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  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Sounds like the plot to an episode of M*A*S*H*
    Too many asterisks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Sounds like the plot to an episode of M*A*S*H*
    Yeah, it does. The jeep had the same bumper # as the Coy CO's jeeb (A-6), so if an inspector was in the area there was no tell-tale blank spot where the log books were kept, we would also put the extra radios in the back seat

    My Dad went to Viet Nam on a boat with the 4ID and when he got there, the division base camp was literally an empty field surrounded by triple strand concertina wire and guard towers. As my father tells the story, when he got to to the base camp one of the first things he did was to send his Battery Clerk out to the boonies with a couple of cases of C-Rations and orders to see what he could scrounge. A week later he comes back with a Prefab building - complete with AC. He said he didn't ask any questions when the Clerk got back, he just arranged to the bldg to be installed.
    Last edited by happyone; 01-11-2018 at 10:58 PM.

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  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    Too many asterisks!
    Doh!

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