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Thread: I am declaring my independence

  1. #31
    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I didn't realize the national democratic party is officially chasing Oprah for 2020. And only one week after she gave her speech! They are way more desperate than the republicans!

    You can laugh all you want at a party nominating someone who lost to Trump. Go ahead, I'll laugh a little with you. That party might have some serious issues. But they are not the dumpster fire that has allowed Trump and his demagoguery to completely take over their party.
    The reality is the Democrats introduced so much stupid crap as they got intoxicated with their shangra la of the electorate of the ascendency, and its assurance of eternal electoral dominance, that they fostered the coalition of those fed up with the absurd. Trump was a reaction to the Democrat/leftist cultural overreach. He was able to uniquely leverage the fatigue with batshit crazy liberal nocturnal emissions. Democrats were to blame more than Republicans. All reasonable people would agree with me.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I didn't realize the national democratic party is officially chasing Oprah for 2020. And only one week after she gave her speech! They are way more desperate than the republicans!
    V9Kvtp2TwWqD67rcorbYBEn9HTt8ht3_8ycNWYTupjQ.jpg

    I am guessing that The Rock, who is currently a registered GOP'er, will most likely be the Libertarians' candidate.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    The reality is the Democrats introduced so much stupid crap as they got intoxicated with their shangra la of the electorate of the ascendency, and its assurance of eternal electoral dominance, that they fostered the coalition of those fed up with the absurd. Trump was a reaction to the Democrat/leftist cultural overreach. He was able to uniquely leverage the fatigue with batshit crazy liberal nocturnal emissions. Democrats were to blame more than Republicans. All reasonable people would agree with me.
    The GOP is accountable for the shitty actions of their voters. They weren’t compelled to vote for an unstable, bigoted moron.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  4. #34
    Philosopher of Men Sleeping in EQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    I was a little sad that no one got the joke in my original comment.
    I got it. Woody Allen in Annie Hall.
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

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    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ View Post
    I got it. Woody Allen in Annie Hall.
    TripletDaddy would've gotten it and then said something even funnier in response.

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    The GOP is accountable for the shitty actions of their voters. They weren’t compelled to vote for an unstable, bigoted moron.
    The GOP'ers didn't have any choice... you know, the "lessor of the two evils" (Hillary is pretty damn evil) and the supreme court thing. Of course, they should have realized they could have just voted for Johnson and not held their noses while voting.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  7. #37
    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    What I've been realizing is that the federal discretionary budget amounts leaves only about 6% available, as Social Security, Medicare, Military, governmental employee costs and debt service consume the other 94%.

    So in reality, each party is arguing over almost nothing. There is only a difference in style and not much more. That is why in no small part the economy moves along however it wishes no matter if Obama or even Trump are president.

    I agree with your frustration.
    Everyone keeps using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. Mandatory spending consumes about 60% of the budget. Debt service 5 to 6%. That leaves about 35% that is discretionary that can theoretically be played with year to year. Unfortunately about 55% of that 35% is defense spending, which is hard to negotiate between the two extremes. So yeah generational entitlements absolutely are the main driver for our debt crisis, but there is room to save in discretionary spending. That's why I always say I hate dumb cliches like grand bargain but that's the only way we solve the debt issue: a restructuring of entitlements coupled with a reduction in defense spending.

    Not sure what you mean by government employees unless you are referring to pensions, but that is included in the 60% mandatory spending number. The really depressing part is these percentages are computed on the federal budget outlays, which has been significantly greater than actual revenue for decades (minus a brief period in the 90s).

    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    The GOP is accountable for the shitty actions of their voters. They weren’t compelled to vote for an unstable, bigoted moron.
    What about all those racist working class rust belt voters who supported Obama but then switched to Trump. Can we blame them too?

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    The reality is the Democrats introduced so much stupid crap as they got intoxicated with their shangra la of the electorate of the ascendency, and its assurance of eternal electoral dominance, that they fostered the coalition of those fed up with the absurd. Trump was a reaction to the Democrat/leftist cultural overreach. He was able to uniquely leverage the fatigue with batshit crazy liberal nocturnal emissions. Democrats were to blame more than Republicans. All reasonable people would agree with me.
    Even if it is true that the dems are to blame more than the republicans for Trump (which I, a reasonable person, disagrees with), a sane political party would have done everything it could have to make sure he didn't end up as the candidate. The GOP didn't prevent the nomination of an abject clown. Therefore, the GOP is not a serious political party.

    And yes, the democrats nominated Hillary. But she was at least a serious candidate, despite her numerous flaws and ethical shortcomings.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
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    I will add, to be fair, that when I say debt crisis I mean the structural problems with entitlements that will overwhelm us if not fixed. Entitlemebt outlays are just now starting to exceed payroll taxes, so we got to where we are at mostly by out of control discretionary spending, to which defense is a large contributor.

  10. #40
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    The GOP'ers didn't have any choice... you know, the "lessor of the two evils" (Hillary is pretty damn evil) and the supreme court thing. Of course, they should have realized they could have just voted for Johnson and not held their noses while voting.
    Can you imagine the lunatics Johnson would have nominated for the Supreme Court? He'd try name the Former President of Mexico. Er, what's his name.. ugh, I'm having a brain... agh.

    Last edited by falafel; 01-10-2018 at 05:57 PM.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    And yes, the democrats nominated Hillary. But she was at least a serious candidate, despite her numerous flaws and ethical shortcomings.
    The democrats' primary was totally rig against anyone that tried to run against Hillary... Bernie was the only one stupid enough to try. Didn't you hear what Pocahontas said?!?

    Asked if DNC system was rigged in Clinton's favor, Warren says 'yes'

    Sen. Elizabeth Warren said she believes that the Democratic National Committee was "rigged" in favor of former Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton during the 2016 primary.


    Asked Thursday by CNN's Jake Tapper whether she believes that the Democratic campaign organization was tipped in favor of Clinton over her primary opponent, independent Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, Warren responded without hesitation: "Yes."
    [...]
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/02/politi...ged/index.html
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
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    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    The democrats' primary was totally rig against anyone that tried to run against Hillary... Bernie was the only one stupid enough to try. Didn't you hear what Pocahontas said?!?


    http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/02/politi...ged/index.html
    What I would have given for a national party to rig the nomination against Trump...

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    Can you imagine the lunatics Johnson would have nominated for the Supreme Court? He'd try name the Former President of Mexico. Er, what's his name.. ugh, I'm having a brain... agh.
    "Uber Lawyers"... Sounds good to me!
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    Everyone keeps using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. Mandatory spending consumes about 60% of the budget. Debt service 5 to 6%. That leaves about 35% that is discretionary that can theoretically be played with year to year. Unfortunately about 55% of that 35% is defense spending, which is hard to negotiate between the two extremes. So yeah generational entitlements absolutely are the main driver for our debt crisis, but there is room to save in discretionary spending. That's why I always say I hate dumb cliches like grand bargain but that's the only way we solve the debt issue: a restructuring of entitlements coupled with a reduction in defense spending.

    Not sure what you mean by government employees unless you are referring to pensions, but that is included in the 60% mandatory spending number. The really depressing part is these percentages are computed on the federal budget outlays, which has been significantly greater than actual revenue for decades (minus a brief period in the 90s).



    What about all those racist working class rust belt voters who supported Obama but then switched to Trump. Can we blame them too?
    Look at this pie chart.

    https://media.nationalpriorities.org...ending_pie.png

    Debt is 7%, but how many of those are discretionary?
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    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    Everyone keeps using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. Mandatory spending consumes about 60% of the budget. Debt service 5 to 6%. That leaves about 35% that is discretionary that can theoretically be played with year to year. Unfortunately about 55% of that 35% is defense spending, which is hard to negotiate between the two extremes. So yeah generational entitlements absolutely are the main driver for our debt crisis, but there is room to save in discretionary spending. That's why I always say I hate dumb cliches like grand bargain but that's the only way we solve the debt issue: a restructuring of entitlements coupled with a reduction in defense spending.

    Not sure what you mean by government employees unless you are referring to pensions, but that is included in the 60% mandatory spending number. The really depressing part is these percentages are computed on the federal budget outlays, which has been significantly greater than actual revenue for decades (minus a brief period in the 90s).
    I'm willing to be an adult to make up for the Baby Boomers' and Greatest Generation's greed.

    http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post936557
    http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post924277
    http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post818620
    http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post800576
    http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post760535
    http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...ity#post628081
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  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    Look at this pie chart.

    https://media.nationalpriorities.org...ending_pie.png

    Debt is 7%, but how many of those are discretionary?
    That's a bad chart for that question because it lumps mandatory and discretionary together. But if In have to answer it's easier to say which are mandatory (the rest are discretionary except debt service which is kind of its own category). Mandatory is most of the bright orange, all but a sliver of the dark blue, veterans benefits, some of food, and some of education. The rest is discretionary which is typically about 35% of the budget give or take.

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    Interesting ideas. I'm disagree with some in principle and would debate the effectiveness of others but I like some. Not going to go down the list here because the point is you are making bold proposals which is what is needed from both sides. There isn't a politician willing to say the truth that we are effing broke because no one wants to hear it. Saying "if we just cut the other side's stuff we will be out of trouble" is more palatable and keeps them elected.

    I do take issue with the word greedy, at least for the greatest generation. I don't think they had any idea when they were storming the beaches in Normandy and Iwo Jima that their victory would lead to unprecedented prosperity which would make them and their children far outlive the age that entitlement programs were meant to cover. The blame belongs with those who could reasonably foresee the coming tidal wave and did nothing about it. Saying "the baby boomers" is probably too harsh but blaming it on their politicians is not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    That's a bad chart for that question because it lumps mandatory and discretionary together. But if In have to answer it's easier to say which are mandatory (the rest are discretionary except debt service which is kind of its own category). Mandatory is most of the bright orange, all but a sliver of the dark blue, veterans benefits, some of food, and some of education. The rest is discretionary which is typically about 35% of the budget give or take.
    I would not consider military discretionary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    I would not consider military discretionary.
    Then, as I suspected, you do not understand the definition of discretionary vs mandatory.

  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowcat View Post
    Add pro immigration and you have me. Do you want to start a party?
    I've always been on board the pro-immigration train.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    I would not consider military discretionary.
    in principle I agree with you, but he level of Military spending IS discretionary. Do we really need to spend $632 Billion or will $500B do or do we need $800B

    Just for an example - Do we need 10 Carrier Task Groups or can we get by with 8 or do we need to increase them to 12

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    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post

    I do take issue with the word greedy, at least for the greatest generation. I don't think they had any idea when they were storming the beaches in Normandy and Iwo Jima that their victory would lead to unprecedented prosperity which would make them and their children far outlive the age that entitlement programs were meant to cover. The blame belongs with those who could reasonably foresee the coming tidal wave and did nothing about it. Saying "the baby boomers" is probably too harsh but blaming it on their politicians is not.
    They elected their politicians. Pro captu electoris, habent sua fata oratori. Or, just, caveat elector, if you like.

    EDIT: My pun should be oratores instead of oratori. The dative plural of orator needs -es.
    Last edited by wuapinmon; 01-10-2018 at 07:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    I've always been on board the pro-immigration train.
    Too bad that's an underground railroad from Reno to Pittsburgh.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  24. #54
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Default I am declaring my independence

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    They elected their politicians. Pro captu electoris, habent sua fata oratori. Or, just, caveat elector, if you like.

    EDIT: My pun should be oratores instead of oratori. The dative plural of orator needs -es.
    Man I am really missing triplet here. He would have SLAYED this amusing set up!
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  25. #55
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Man I am really missing triplet here. He would have SLAYED this amusing set up!
    You're right. The dative is oratoribus. I meant nominative. Comedy gold.
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  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by originalsocal View Post
    100% agree with this entire thread---except for Uncle Ted. He's weird.
    I cant vouch for the weirdness of Uncle Ted, but it clearly isn't because of his correct political philosophy.

    Both of the dominant political parties lack principle and philosophical consistency. They are for whatever is politically expedient for them at the moment. Both parties want to centrally plan the economy and the morality of the country using force.

    libertarians and classical liberals may disagree on some specifics among themselves, but at the core its a belief that everything that can be done in the private sector, should be done in the private sector. The only moral role of the government is to protect property rights, provide national defense, and dictate the foreign policy of the country. Given today's bloated administrative state, the perfect libertarian paradise is not attainable. But we work to slowly push public policy in that direction. Until a viable floating city in international waters is realized, its our only hope. We just get to go to bed with a clear conscious that only philosophical consistency can provide.

    A point of clarification, when I say libertarian I mean small "l" libertarian. The Libertarian Party is legitimately full crazy assholes who think its a good idea to strip on stage during their party convention or talk about how they pay for their prostitutes using crypto currency. It's a fringe party that attracts fringe people. Small "l" libertarians work to reform the existing two party system (CATO institute, Reason, Institute for Humane Studies, etc).

  27. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Even if it is true that the dems are to blame more than the republicans for Trump (which I, a reasonable person, disagrees with), a sane political party would have done everything it could have to make sure he didn't end up as the candidate.
    Like cheat? Trump won the nomination fair and square. Other than subvert the nomination process, what could be done? He didn't even win a majority of the GOP votes in the primary, so if anyone is to blame it not is the people who voted for him in the primary, but the people who didn't band behind one candidate to beat him. Also, Trump won the general election because of the independents who voted for BO last time and Trump this time. Dems and Republicans always vote for their own party because, by virtue of their party membership, most all of them think anyone from their party is better than the alternative. It's always the independents who make the difference.

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    October sky the Four Horsemen rode again"
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  28. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by originalsocal View Post
    The Rudi Party -- it can't fail!!
    how could you be so rude and reckless?
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    Like cheat? Trump won the nomination fair and square. Other than subvert the nomination process, what could be done? He didn't even win a majority of the GOP votes in the primary, so if anyone is to blame it not is the people who voted for him in the primary, but the people who didn't band behind one candidate to beat him. Also, Trump won the general election because of the independents who voted for BO last time and Trump this time. Dems and Republicans always vote for their own party because, by virtue of their party membership, most all of them think anyone from their party is better than the alternative. It's always the independents who make the difference.
    Cowboy, you haven't been a good student of Frank's posts around here... Drumpf won because of the Russian hackers.

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    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyone View Post
    in principle I agree with you, but he level of Military spending IS discretionary. Do we really need to spend $632 Billion or will $500B do or do we need $800B

    Just for an example - Do we need 10 Carrier Task Groups or can we get by with 8 or do we need to increase them to 12
    Here is another example...

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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