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Thread: I am declaring my independence

  1. #1
    Philosopher of Men Sleeping in EQ's Avatar
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    Default I am declaring my independence

    I no longer consider myself a Democrat. I'm certainly not a Republican. Libertarians are crazy. Greens are flakey.

    Liberals and conservatives are just different flavors of Puritan.

    If a centrist movement arises I'll take a close look, but until then I'm just a man having Thai food for lunch.
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

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    CS Institutional Memory Jarid in Cedar's Avatar
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    Welcome to the club
    "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

    "They talk about the economy this year. Hey, my hairline is in recession, my waistline is in inflation. Altogether, I'm in a depression."

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Welcome comrade!
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  4. #4
    One of the grandest benefits of the enlightenment was the realization that our moral sense must be based on the welfare of living individuals, not on their immortal souls. Honest and passionate folks can strongly disagree regarding spiritual matters, so it's imperative that we not allow such considerations to infringe on the real happiness of real people.

    Woot

    I believe religion has much inherent good and has born many good fruits.
    SU

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ View Post
    If a centrist movement arises I'll take a close look, but until then I'm just a man having Thai food for lunch.
    I like it. Much better approach than a hunger strike.

  6. #6
    UofU/BYU mixed marriage Scott R Nelson's Avatar
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    Neither major party represents me very well - I've been an independent for more than ten years. It's easy to point out what is wrong with a particular party. I still look for which policies are good for any of them.

    Maybe if enough people abandon the major parties they'll stop following the extremists and try a bit harder to represent those of us closer to the middle. It also bugs me that both parties feel the need to take the opposite view of the other, even when the other party has a good idea.

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    Pre-Historic Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ View Post
    I no longer consider myself a Democrat. I'm certainly not a Republican. Libertarians are crazy. Greens are flakey.

    Liberals and conservatives are just different flavors of Puritan.

    If a centrist movement arises I'll take a close look, but until then I'm just a man having Thai food for lunch.
    What I've been realizing is that the federal discretionary budget amounts leaves only about 6% available, as Social Security, Medicare, Military, governmental employee costs and debt service consume the other 94%.

    So in reality, each party is arguing over almost nothing. There is only a difference in style and not much more. That is why in no small part the economy moves along however it wishes no matter if Obama or even Trump are president.

    I agree with your frustration.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  8. #8
    𐐐𐐄𐐢𐐆𐐤𐐝 𐐓𐐅 𐐜 𐐢𐐃𐐡𐐔 Uncle Ted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ View Post
    I no longer consider myself a Democrat. I'm certainly not a Republican. Libertarians are crazy. Greens are flakey.

    Liberals and conservatives are just different flavors of Puritan.

    If a centrist movement arises I'll take a close look, but until then I'm just a man having Thai food for lunch.



    Those crazy libertarians!
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  9. #9
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    I'm a Marxist Christian Centrist.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ View Post
    I no longer consider myself a Democrat. I'm certainly not a Republican. Libertarians are crazy. Greens are flakey.

    Liberals and conservatives are just different flavors of Puritan.

    If a centrist movement arises I'll take a close look, but until then I'm just a man having Thai food for lunch.
    I'm surprised all those earnest protests from millennial college students haven't kept you on the Democratic side of things.
    Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R Nelson View Post
    Neither major party represents me very well - I've been an independent for more than ten years. It's easy to point out what is wrong with a particular party. I still look for which policies are good for any of them.

    Maybe if enough people abandon the major parties they'll stop following the extremists and try a bit harder to represent those of us closer to the middle. It also bugs me that both parties feel the need to take the opposite view of the other, even when the other party has a good idea.
    Unfortunately as more and more normal people leave the 2 major parties, it only adds fuel to the fire for them and emboldens the wackos in them since that's all that's left. What the majority in the middle need to do is start to fight like hell against gerrymandering, which is a major culprit for why the two major parties have gotten so extreme. Gerrymandering is used to make Congressional districts noncompetitive which gives their reps no incentive to be open to other points of view. There are currently two important court cases out there where the federal courts have struck down obvious partisan gerrymandering in N. Carolina and Wisconsin. Gerrymandering for racial reasons was struck down by the court in 1993, I believe.

    In Wisconsin in the last election the Dems won 50% of the statewide vote but only won 40% of the Congressional districts. The lines were drawn by a secret GOP committee. In N. Carolina where voting in statewide races in the last couple of cycles have been nearly 50/50, only 3/11 members of Congress are not Republicans. The Supreme Court already has the Wisconsin case scheduled. I believe both of these lower court rulings will be upheld and partisan gerrymandering will become illegal.

    In Utah there are actually 15 cities that are split so they're represented by at least 2 members of Congress. That's beyond stupid. It's not as if Utah has anywhere near that many cities that are so large they couldn't be represented by the same person. the way the lines are drawn there is an obvious effort to dilute the influence of pockets of areas where maybe the Republicans aren't as dominant. That defeats the whole philosophy behind representation as espoused by the founding fathers who believed that people in different parts of a state would likely have different interests and needs.

  12. #12
    Senior Member originalsocal's Avatar
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    100% agree with this entire thread---except for Uncle Ted. He's weird.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    What I've been realizing is that the federal discretionary budget amounts leaves only about 6% available, as Social Security, Medicare, Military, governmental employee costs and debt service consume the other 94%.

    So in reality, each party is arguing over almost nothing. There is only a difference in style and not much more. That is why in no small part the economy moves along however it wishes no matter if Obama or even Trump are president.

    I agree with your frustration.
    This is why I don't care much about discretionary spending. What the country really needs is Social Security and Medicare reform, deregulation (it's crazy to me that a hair stylist needs more training and licenses than a backhoe operator), and a growth-promoting tax structure. The only way we survive is to grow the heck out of the economy and reign in our SS/Medicare obligations. The idea that we are stuck with 2% GDP growth is hogwash.

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    I'm a Marxist Christian Centrist.
    Most people think they are moderate or centrist. Unfortunately, amigo, being a Marxist makes you a long way from center, at least economically.

    I think, like many, I'm a mix of conservative, moderate, and even a little liberal. It depends on the issue. Economically, I'm a free-market guy, including pro-free trade, but I recognize regulation is necessary to ensure competition. Fiscally, I'm more to the center, as I recognize the need for entitlements, a strong military, and a progressive tax structure - probably still a bit right of center. Socially, I'm the most moderate, and probably best described as libertarian. Laws should protect people from others, but not necessarily from themselves. Whatever all that makes me is what I am.

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  14. #14

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    I think the Tea Party folks have shown the best way to influence the political process is by working from inside one of the 2 major parties. That’s just my opinion.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  15. #15

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    Since I'm a commie, I gravitate more towards the democrats these days. Which is good, because they are the only serious national party right now.

    Once the GOP has been burned to ashes, and if a serious right-leaning party emerges, I'll reconsider my bleeding heart ways.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    I think the Tea Party folks have shown the best way to influence the political process is by working from inside one of the 2 major parties. That’s just my opinion.
    Perhaps, as far as getting people elected. But I doubt you'll ever be able to get one of the major parties to really get behind a concept like ending gerrymandering. The dems would be more likely to get behind that idea right now because they've been the victims of it more often recently. But in the past they've also been the perpetrators of it. In states where citizens can get initiatives on the ballot is a good place to force the major parties kicking and screaming into being more responsible on issues like that.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Since I'm a commie, I gravitate more towards the democrats these days. Which is good, because they are the only serious national party right now.

    Once the GOP has been burned to ashes, and if a serious right-leaning party emerges, I'll reconsider my bleeding heart ways.
    The dems had a rigged process that nominated a candidate that lost to Donald Freaking Trump. Their answer to this disaster is to chase Oprah for the next go around. That looks like one serious party.
    One of the grandest benefits of the enlightenment was the realization that our moral sense must be based on the welfare of living individuals, not on their immortal souls. Honest and passionate folks can strongly disagree regarding spiritual matters, so it's imperative that we not allow such considerations to infringe on the real happiness of real people.

    Woot

    I believe religion has much inherent good and has born many good fruits.
    SU

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    I think, like many, I'm a mix of conservative, moderate, and even a little liberal. It depends on the issue. Economically, I'm a free-market guy, including pro-free trade, but I recognize regulation is necessary to ensure competition. Fiscally, I'm more to the center, as I recognize the need for entitlements, a strong military, and a progressive tax structure - probably still a bit right of center. Socially, I'm the most moderate, and probably best described as libertarian. Laws should protect people from others, but not necessarily from themselves. Whatever all that makes me is what I am.
    Add pro immigration and you have me. Do you want to start a party?
    One of the grandest benefits of the enlightenment was the realization that our moral sense must be based on the welfare of living individuals, not on their immortal souls. Honest and passionate folks can strongly disagree regarding spiritual matters, so it's imperative that we not allow such considerations to infringe on the real happiness of real people.

    Woot

    I believe religion has much inherent good and has born many good fruits.
    SU

  19. #19
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowcat View Post
    Add pro immigration and you have me. Do you want to start a party?
    I'll join.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowcat View Post
    The dems had a rigged process that nominated a candidate that lost to Donald Freaking Trump. Their answer to this disaster is to chase Oprah for the next go around. That looks like one serious party.
    I'm like LeBron James.
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  22. #22
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    This is why I don't care much about discretionary spending. What the country really needs is Social Security and Medicare reform, deregulation (it's crazy to me that a hair stylist needs more training and licenses than a backhoe operator), and a growth-promoting tax structure. The only way we survive is to grow the heck out of the economy and reign in our SS/Medicare obligations. The idea that we are stuck with 2% GDP growth is hogwash.



    Most people think they are moderate or centrist. Unfortunately, amigo, being a Marxist makes you a long way from center, at least economically.

    I think, like many, I'm a mix of conservative, moderate, and even a little liberal. It depends on the issue. Economically, I'm a free-market guy, including pro-free trade, but I recognize regulation is necessary to ensure competition. Fiscally, I'm more to the center, as I recognize the need for entitlements, a strong military, and a progressive tax structure - probably still a bit right of center. Socially, I'm the most moderate, and probably best described as libertarian. Laws should protect people from others, but not necessarily from themselves. Whatever all that makes me is what I am.
    I'm a Marxist in the sense that I would never join a party that would have me as a member. Groucho, not Karl.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  23. #23
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    I'm a Marxist in the sense that I would never join a party that would have me as a member. Groucho, not Karl.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowcat View Post
    The dems had a rigged process that nominated a candidate that lost to Donald Freaking Trump. Their answer to this disaster is to chase Oprah for the next go around. That looks like one serious party.
    I’m not sure a Jewish Athiest Socialist Sanders beats Trump.


    Let’s hope they have some ability to be serious because the GOP abdicated that a long time ago.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    I’m not sure a Jewish Athiest Socialist Sanders beats Trump.


    Let’s hope they have some ability to be serious because the GOP abdicated that a long time ago.
    Maybe there would have been better options from the Democrats without Hillary's heavy-handed presence in the race.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Maybe there would have been better options from the Democrats without Hillary's heavy-handed presence in the race.
    Who knows. I don’t approve of her coronation but let’s not let the GOP off the hook from holding most of the blame for who is in the White House.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  27. #27
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I was a little sad that no one got the joke in my original comment.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowcat View Post
    The dems had a rigged process that nominated a candidate that lost to Donald Freaking Trump. Their answer to this disaster is to chase Oprah for the next go around. That looks like one serious party.
    I didn't realize the national democratic party is officially chasing Oprah for 2020. And only one week after she gave her speech! They are way more desperate than the republicans!

    You can laugh all you want at a party nominating someone who lost to Trump. Go ahead, I'll laugh a little with you. That party might have some serious issues. But they are not the dumpster fire that has allowed Trump and his demagoguery to completely take over their party.

  29. #29
    Senior Member originalsocal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowcat View Post
    Add pro immigration and you have me. Do you want to start a party?
    The Rudi Party -- it can't fail!!

  30. #30
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I didn't realize the national democratic party is officially chasing Oprah for 2020. And only one week after she gave her speech! They are way more desperate than the republicans!

    You can laugh all you want at a party nominating someone who lost to Trump. Go ahead, I'll laugh a little with you. That party might have some serious issues. But they are not the dumpster fire that has allowed Trump and his demagoguery to completely take over their party.
    Yeah, but they certainly had a lot to do with letting him take over our country.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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