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Thread: Gay Wedding Cakes

  1. #121
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    Can I, as a Christian baker, refuse to bake a cake for a Satanist that wants me to put a mangled Jesus on a cross on the cake for his anti-christ commitment ceremony?
    According to funk, yes, because the Satanist is not a protected class.

  2. #122
    Known Heterosexual RC Vikings's Avatar
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    Seems like really bad luck this gay couple would pick a wedding cake baker who was straight, what are the odds. Good thing you couldn't make that same mistake picking a florist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC Vikings View Post
    Seems like really bad luck this gay couple would pick a wedding cake baker who was straight, what are the odds. Good thing you couldn't make that same mistake picking a florist.

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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by RC Vikings View Post
    Seems like really bad luck this gay couple would pick a wedding cake baker who was straight, what are the odds. Good thing you couldn't make that same mistake picking a florist.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    No. It is not a protected class and shouldn't be a protected class. You aren't born a racist piece of shit that is definitely a decision.
    OK, smart guy. What if the two KKK members are lesbians and the cake is for their gay wedding?

    Checkmate!
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  6. #126
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    For those so inclined, here's the transcript of the argument.

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_ar...6-111_f314.pdf
    Thanks. What stood out to me:

    Where to draw the line between protected speech and anti-discrimination - the baker, the florist, the hairstylist, the makeup artist, the tailor, writing vows, etc.

    Justice Breyer seemed much more open to compromise than I would have expected.

    The court seemed pretty disgusted with the two commissioners that had expressed a potential bias against religion.

    This snippet from Justice Alito (starting on page 58) indicating that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission may have based its enforcement of the law on viewpoint:

    The -- the Commission had before it

    the example of three complaints filed by an

    individual whose creed includes the traditional

    Judeo-Christian opposition to same-sex

    marriage, and he requested cakes that expressed

    that point of view, and those -- there were

    bakers who said no, we won't do that because it

    is offensive.

    And the Commission said: That's okay.

    It's okay for a baker who supports same-sex

    marriage to refuse to create a cake with a

    message that is opposed to same-sex marriage.

    But when the tables are turned and you have the

    baker who opposes same-sex marriage, that baker

    may be compelled to create a cake that

    expresses approval of same-sex marriage.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    OK, smart guy. What if the two KKK members are lesbians and the cake is for their gay wedding?

    Checkmate!
    Is the cake lesbian marriage themed, KKK themed, or both?
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
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  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by cougjunkie View Post
    What a boring ass thread. Yawn.
    I completely agree. Unlike the gay marriage cases which I followed ravenously, this one seems like it was manufactured in a factory co-owned by Fox news and cnbc. I won't cry tears if the gays have to select a non-homophobic baker (that way they avoid the threat of poisoning), nor will I be shaken up at the prospect of a religious baker who believes that same sex baked goods are of the devil being asked to provide a cake to gays. So much ado about nothing.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    Can I, as a Christian baker, refuse to bake a cake for a Satanist that wants me to put a mangled Jesus on a cross on the cake for his anti-christ commitment ceremony?
    From Mr. Yarger, Solicitor General from Colorado (page 60):

    MR. YARGER: -- yes -- yes, Your

    Honor -- is decide that he won't sell somebody

    a product that he would otherwise sell because

    in his view the identity of the customer

    changes the message.
    I believe Colorado's position would be that if the Christian baker creates mangled Jesus cakes for others, then he would be required to sell the same cake to the Satanist (if Satanist can be included in one of the protected classes).
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

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    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    One interesting bit from the argument that I didn't appreciate before was that the baker is not objecting to selling the gay couple anything from his store. He was apparently willing to sell them anything that was pre-made. He only objected to making a custom cake for them that included images and messaging that they provided to him. That is where the "compelled speech" issue comes from, and makes this case a bit more interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Is the cake lesbian marriage themed, KKK themed, or both?
    Both. With a portrait of Ken Burns in the middle. Drinking Starbucks coffee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    One interesting bit from the argument that I didn't appreciate before was that the baker is not objecting to selling the gay couple anything from his store. He was apparently willing to sell them anything that was pre-made. He only objected to making a custom cake for them that included images and messaging that they provided to him. That is where the "compelled speech" issue comes from, and makes this case a bit more interesting.
    If he refused to sell them pre-made items from his bakery this case wouldn't be at the Supreme Court. It would be an open/shut case of discrimination based both on federal law and state law. A bakery is specifically listed as a public accommodation under federal law.

    It isn't an interesting bit at all. It is something that any business owner that hates homosexuals has to do. Not necessarily saying this guy hates homosexuals, but there is a damn good chance that he does.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I completely agree. Unlike the gay marriage cases which I followed ravenously, this one seems like it was manufactured in a factory co-owned by Fox news and cnbc. I won't cry tears if the gays have to select a non-homophobic baker (that way they avoid the threat of poisoning), nor will I be shaken up at the prospect of a religious baker who believes that same sex baked goods are of the devil being asked to provide a cake to gays. So much ado about nothing.
    It's kind of funny how frequently you mock conversations here. But you keep coming back!
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    If he refused to sell them pre-made items from his bakery this case wouldn't be at the Supreme Court. It would be an open/shut case of discrimination based both on federal law and state law. A bakery is specifically listed as a public accommodation under federal law.

    It isn't an interesting bit at all. It is something that any business owner that hates homosexuals has to do. Not necessarily saying this guy hates homosexuals, but there is a damn good chance that he does.
    Well, it might. Lawyers are actually very creative! Someone could have created an argument triggering a different constitutional issue. Don't act like you know all the possible permutations here!
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    If he refused to sell them pre-made items from his bakery this case wouldn't be at the Supreme Court. It would be an open/shut case of discrimination based both on federal law and state law. A bakery is specifically listed as a public accommodation under federal law.

    It isn't an interesting bit at all. It is something that any business owner that hates homosexuals has to do. Not necessarily saying this guy hates homosexuals, but there is a damn good chance that he does.
    I am not necessarily saying that you are an anti-religious bigot, but there is a damn good chance you are!

    (see how productive this is?)
    Last edited by Jeff Lebowski; 12-05-2017 at 05:10 PM.
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    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I am not necessarily saying that you are an anti-religious bigot, but there is a damn good chance you are!

    (see how productive this is?)
    Have I asked for rights to be restricted on the basis of religious beliefs? If I said that people that believe in Christ shouldn't be allowed to be married, you might have a case to infer that I hate Christians.

    I'm sorry that I'm willing to at least entertain that someone who wants to deny fundamental rights to homosexuals might dislike them.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Have I asked for rights to be restricted on the basis of religious beliefs? If I said that people that believe in Christ shouldn't be allowed to be married, you might have a case to infer that I hate Christians.

    I'm sorry that I'm willing to at least entertain that someone who wants to deny fundamental rights to homosexuals might dislike them.
    No, you automatically assumed that if he doesn’t support gay marriage that he must hate gays. I know you like to make that assumption because it confirms your biases, but you at least ought to consider that that is not always the case.

    Furthermore, this kind of demonization of our ideological opponents is exactly what got our country into the stupid mess (Trump!) in the first place.
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    No, you automatically assumed that if he doesn’t support gay marriage that he must hate gays. I know you like to make that assumption because it confirms your biases, but you at least ought to consider that that is not always the case.

    Furthermore, this kind of demonization of our ideological opponents is exactly what got our country into the stupid mess (Trump!) in the first place.
    Not everyone who wants to deny fundamental rights to homosexuals hate them. However, it pretty compelling evidence though that a person does hate homosexuals if they want to deny them fundamental rights simply based on sexual orientation. I'm open to seeing other evidence with those people.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Not everyone who wants to deny fundamental rights to homosexuals hate them. However, it pretty compelling evidence though that a person does hate homosexuals if they want to deny them fundamental rights simply based on sexual orientation. I'm open to seeing other evidence with those people.
    No you're not. But you're not above pretending that you are.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    Wait, is having a cake made for your wedding a fundamental right? Id think getting married is a fundamental right, not having a cake made, but what do I know?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It's kind of funny how frequently you mock conversations here. But you keep coming back!
    Go easy on AJ. She just needs some adult conversation after spending all day running errands with the kiddos.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Wait, is having a cake made for your wedding a fundamental right? Id think getting married is a fundamental right, not having a cake made, but what do I know?
    Not just a cake (he was willing to sell them a premade wedding cake off-the-shelf) but a custom-made cake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Wait, is having a cake made for your wedding a fundamental right? Id think getting married is a fundamental right, not having a cake made, but what do I know?


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    fundamental right isn't exactly the right term here
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    No. It is not a protected class and shouldn't be a protected class. You aren't born a racist piece of shit that is definitely a decision.
    So do you advocate protecting only those persons who are genetically determined to act or believe or experience urges in a certain way? Are you excluding protection from persons who just like gay sex but are otherwise straight? What about a cultivated fetish?
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    fundamental right isn't exactly the right term here
    Okay, I was confused. Funk used "fundamental right" at least twice in this conversation.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Okay, I was confused. Funk used "fundamental right" at least twice in this conversation.
    Don't worry, funk isn't making legal arguments. That way, he can use terms anyway he wants.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Wait, is having a cake made for your wedding a fundamental right? Id think getting married is a fundamental right, not having a cake made, but what do I know?


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    Having a cake baked for you isn't about a fundamental right. The fundamental right thing came up in the context of discussing whether or not the baker actually hates homosexuals. I indicated that his advocacy/desire to deny the fundamental right to marry to homosexuals is compelling evidence that he hates homosexuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Not just a cake (he was willing to sell them a premade wedding cake off-the-shelf) but a custom-made cake.
    He gets no points for this act. He is required under federal law to sell them.

    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    So do you advocate protecting only those persons who are genetically determined to act or believe or experience urges in a certain way? Are you excluding protection from persons who just like gay sex but are otherwise straight? What about a cultivated fetish?
    People who "like gay sex but are otherwise straight" are not straight, they are bisexual. Yes, I think bisexuals should be a protected class. A cultivated fetish is not comparable to someone being LGBTQ. As for protected classes, I think when we are talking sexual orientation, I think the protections are based on a genetic predisposition.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

  28. #148
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    Truck drivers discriminating against Funk and his friends by not delivering their sacrament...

    Jury Awards $240,000 to Muslim Truck Drivers In EEOC Religious Discrimination Suit

    A federal jury in Peoria, Ill., has awarded $240,000 to two Somalian-American Muslims who were fired from their jobs as truck drivers at Star Transport, an over-the-road trucking company, when they refused to transport alcohol because it violated their religious beliefs, according to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), which brought the case. The trial started on Oct. 19, and the jury returned its verdict the next day after 45 minutes of deliberation.


    Judge James E. Shadid, the chief judge of the U.S. District Court for the Central District of Illinois, found in favor of EEOC after Star Transport admitted liability in March 2015. The resulting trial was to determine compensatory and punitive damages and back pay. The jury awarded Mahad Abass Mohamed and Abdkiarim Hassan Bulshale $20,000 each in compensatory damages and $100,000 each in punitive damages. Judge Shadid awarded each approximately $1,500 in back pay.
    [...]
    Smason stated, "We are pleased that the jury recognized that these - and all - employees are entitled to observe and practice their faith, no matter what that might be."


    Bulshale commented, "This case makes me proud to be American."
    https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/r.../10-22-15b.cfm

    I guess this trucking company learned a valuable lesson... Don't hire mormons, muslims, etc. to drive your beer trucks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Truck drivers discriminating against Funk and his friends by not delivering their sacrament...


    https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/r.../10-22-15b.cfm

    I guess this trucking company learned a valuable lesson... Don't hire mormons, muslims, etc. to drive your beer trucks.
    I don't necessarily have a problem with this result. It makes sense for an employer to make a reasonable accommodation for a religious belief prohibiting the consumption of alcohol. I can see how this is a case of religious discrimination.

    However, I still see no religious discrimination in requiring a person applying for a business license being required to engage in business in a non-discriminatory manner towards protected classes. Based on the historical oppression and continuing oppression of LGBTQ, it makes sense to have them be a protected class. I don't think a business owner should be allowed to hide behind his or her religion to justify discriminating in business practices.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

  30. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    I don't necessarily have a problem with this result. It makes sense for an employer to make a reasonable accommodation for a religious belief prohibiting the consumption of alcohol. I can see how this is a case of religious discrimination.
    Is not hiring muslims. mormons, etc. truck drivers in the first place considered a "reasonable accommodation"? It seems like the simplest thing to do for a delivery service to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    However, I still see no religious discrimination in requiring a person applying for a business license being required to engage in business in a non-discriminatory manner towards protected classes. Based on the historical oppression and continuing oppression of LGBTQ, it makes sense to have them be a protected class. I don't think a business owner should be allowed to hide behind his or her religion to justify discriminating in business practices.
    What if it a muslim owned trucking company and they refuse to deliver beer to a gay night club? Are they doing it because they have religious problems with alcohol or gays? Maybe they delivered beer to some other night clubs but didn't have any idea what they were hauling (the stuff is all in boxes).

    And this "protected class" thing... Are you saying that you and beer/sacrament drinking religous buddies have no class? Just wondering.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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