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Thread: Gay Wedding Cakes

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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Default Gay Wedding Cakes

    SCOTUS hears a landmark case tomorrow. Masterpiece Cakeshop vs. Colorado Civil Rights Commission.

    http://time.com/5045071/colorado-wed...e-case-scotus/

    People camping out to get a seat:

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    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    SCOTUS hears a landmark case tomorrow. Masterpiece Cakeshop vs. Colorado Civil Rights Commission.

    http://time.com/5045071/colorado-wed...e-case-scotus/

    People camping out to get a seat:

    I predict that the losing side will predict the end of our civilization but really everything will be ok.

  3. #3

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    Lower court's ruling that businesses have to bake the cake will be upheld. I think it's wrong, but what I think doesn't matter.

    "Outlined against a blue, gray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    I predict that the losing side will predict the end of our civilization but really everything will be ok.
    #hottake

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    Striving for mediocrity Art Vandelay's Avatar
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    This will have a direct effect on a local case, that some thought SCOTUS would rule on. Basically the same thing, just substitute flowers for cake. Though, I probably should admire people for standing up for their religious beliefs, I think it's stupid to not just make the cake or sell the flowers.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...t-court-rules/

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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    I personally would have zero problem baking a cake in such a situation. But I am torn on this one as I see compelling arguments on both sides. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I personally would have zero problem baking a cake in such a situation. But I am torn on this one as I see compelling arguments on both sides. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
    same.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    I predict the SCOTUS will rule that Masterpiece Cakes will be required to use their artistic gifts from God to make gay wedding cakes, flag-burning cakes, racist cakes, alcoholic cakes, satanic cakes, etc. just like Colin Kaepernick will be required stand for the national anthem (if he ever plays in the NFL again). These people that think they can hide behind first amendment because they think they are some kind of artist need to be beaten down with the blunt end of a rifle.
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    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    I predict the SCOTUS will rule that Masterpiece Cakes will be required to use their artistic gifts from God to make gay wedding cakes, flag-burning cakes, racist cakes, alcoholic cakes, satanic cakes, etc. just like Colin Kaepernick will be required stand for the national anthem (if he ever plays in the NFL again). These people that think they can hide behind first amendment because they think they are some kind of artist need to be beaten down with the blunt end of a rifle.
    Spoken like a true libertarian.
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Spoken like a true libertarian.
    Dyslexics are teople poo...

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    Huge Member BigPiney's Avatar
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    I am worried that the gay wedding cakes will devalue traditional wedding cakes.

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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigPiney View Post
    I am worried that the gay wedding cakes will devalue traditional wedding cakes.
    Damn straight.

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    not a public accomodation. totally and truly absurd result if upheld.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

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    Most people see this case as another version of Katzenbach v. McClung, but I disagree. It would be one thing to refuse service to people because they are gay, but this is opposition to the activity, not the person. The counter argument, of course, is this is a legal activity, and they would not be opposed to providing service if the participants weren't gay. I disagree. Taking this to a ridiculous extreme, this would seem to imply that a female photographer who photographs nude women should be compelled to do the same for a man. No analogy is perfect, so I don't want to go far with that one, but the point is that I don't think anyone should be compelled to provide a service for an activity that they don't want to participate in.

    Before anyone starts calling me a homophobe, I have a business that provided material for a gay wedding, and I'd do it again. I didn't know what it was for at the time, but I certainly didn't have a problem with it. The customer has returned a few times for other things. I just think people should have the freedom to say no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    not a public accomodation. totally and truly absurd result if upheld.
    Yeah, those so called artists need be taught to conform. Things like cake and flowers arrangements are not art! And because of that they shouldn't be allowed to charge ridiculous prices for their crap either. The next you know they will not make a cake because because they are aggie fans or something...

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    Taking this to a ridiculous extreme, this would seem to imply that a female photographer who photographs nude women should be compelled to do the same for a man.
    That's kind of the main point isn't it? Is the medium of "cake baking" covered by free speech? Writing, painting, and photography have been long-recognized mediums for freedom of expression. I don't think cake baking / decorating is inherently expressive in the same way, but IANAL.
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    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    Most people see this case as another version of Katzenbach v. McClung, but I disagree. It would be one thing to refuse service to people because they are gay, but this is opposition to the activity, not the person. The counter argument, of course, is this is a legal activity, and they would not be opposed to providing service if the participants weren't gay. I disagree. Taking this to a ridiculous extreme, this would seem to imply that a female photographer who photographs nude women should be compelled to do the same for a man. No analogy is perfect, so I don't want to go far with that one, but the point is that I don't think anyone should be compelled to provide a service for an activity that they don't want to participate in.

    Before anyone starts calling me a homophobe, I have a business that provided material for a gay wedding, and I'd do it again. I didn't know what it was for at the time, but I certainly didn't have a problem with it. The customer has returned a few times for other things. I just think people should have the freedom to say no.
    The fact that you felt obligated, as would I, to share your "I am not a homophobe" bona fides in any discussion of legal principles and constitutional rights is a sad commentary on how so often the debate/discussion/strategy is not about the legal principle itself or presenting a well-thought-out argument but rather about villainizing one's opponent.

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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    One of the interesting things about this case is differences of opinion. George Will argues that the cake baker does not have a case. David French of NRO disagrees:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...-still-obtains

    There’s a line, moreover, in Will’s piece that demonstrates surprising ignorance about weddings despite the fact that Will has undoubtedly attended countless ceremonies in his long and illustrious career. Who has ever said that a wedding cake was primarily food? No one wants the cake to taste like trash, but is that the reason that brides, moms, and wedding planners agonize over their cake choice? (Grooms are more likely to be indifferent.) No, they want the cake to be beautiful. They want it to be — dare I say it — a work of art. Rare is the person who attends the wedding reception eager to chow down on a piece of wedding cake. The common and nearly universal experience in weddings where the bride and groom have even the smallest budget to celebrate is the gathering of guests around the cake, to proclaim how “amazing” it looks, to admire the specific aspects that make it special, the “perfect” cake for the perfect couple.
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    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    One of the interesting things about this case is differences of opinion. George Will argues that the cake baker does not have a case. David French of NRO disagrees:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...-still-obtains
    An interesting analogy, in my opinion, is whether the government should be able to compel technical/software companies or individuals to do things that violate the religious/moral/expression principles the company disagrees with.

    My company refuses all business from pornographers. Should we be forced to take on their business?
    Should the software engineers at Apple be forced to create government backdoors or to otherwise hack into customer data that the customer hasn't granted them access to?

    If I was an individual contract software engineer, should I be forced to take on projects and write code for things that I felt were morally objectionable?

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    The fact that you felt obligated, as would I, to share your "I am not a homophobe" bona fides in any discussion of legal principles and constitutional rights is a sad commentary on how so often the debate/discussion/strategy is not about the legal principle itself or presenting a well-thought-out argument but rather about villainizing one's opponent.
    poor victims. hey, i have black friends!
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post

    My company refuses all business from pornographers. Should we be forced to take on their business?
    Depends if it is gay porn.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    Should the software engineers at Apple be forced to create government backdoors or to otherwise hack into customer data that the customer hasn't granted them access to?
    Software engineers at Apple are clearly artists unlike those so called "cake and flower artists". Therefore, the government has no place forcing an apple artist to change her artistic expression. So of course not.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  22. #22

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    I could go either way on this. I just don't want to hear all the outlandish "slippery slope" arguments.

  23. #23

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    In the perfect libertarian world, racist and bigoted business owners of all stripes would be allowed to discriminate freely. And faith in the market and the goodness of the majority of people would eventually drive these people out of business. Or, failing that, sunlight would prove the best disinfectant and force them to conform to society's mores and change their business practices.

    Hasn't society already hashed this argument out? Haven't we already agreed to reject discrimination in the secular world? Gays now essentially have the same civil rights as every other historically disadvantaged minority. This is not a free speech issue. Bigots can believe and say whatever they want to, in church or in their personal lives. The problem occurs when they try to transfer those beliefs in their secular lives. There should be no discrimination allowed in the business world. Once you enter the business world, you play by the government's rules. If you refuse service to anyone, it better not be based on religious or personal values. I fail to see how this case is any different than a business discriminating against a race.

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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    In the perfect libertarian world, racist and bigoted business owners of all stripes would be allowed to discriminate freely. And faith in the market and the goodness of the majority of people would eventually drive these people out of business. Or, failing that, sunlight would prove the best disinfectant and force them to conform to society's mores and change their business practices.

    Hasn't society already hashed this argument out? Haven't we already agreed to reject discrimination in the secular world? Gays now essentially have the same civil rights as every other historically disadvantaged minority. This is not a free speech issue. Bigots can believe and say whatever they want to, in church or in their personal lives. The problem occurs when they try to transfer those beliefs in their secular lives. There should be no discrimination allowed in the business world. Once you enter the business world, you play by the government's rules. If you refuse service to anyone, it better not be based on religious or personal values. I fail to see how this case is any different than a business discriminating against a race.
    Dang it. You were almost to score a touchdown!

    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Dang it. You were almost to score a touchdown!

    I fail to see how my last two sentences detract from my sound argument.

    And, low blow with the ute pic!

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    In the perfect libertarian world, racist and bigoted business owners of all stripes would be allowed to discriminate freely. And faith in the market and the goodness of the majority of people would eventually drive these people out of business. Or, failing that, sunlight would prove the best disinfectant and force them to conform to society's mores and change their business practices.

    Hasn't society already hashed this argument out? Haven't we already agreed to reject discrimination in the secular world? Gays now essentially have the same civil rights as every other historically disadvantaged minority. This is not a free speech issue. Bigots can believe and say whatever they want to, in church or in their personal lives. The problem occurs when they try to transfer those beliefs in their secular lives. There should be no discrimination allowed in the business world. Once you enter the business world, you play by the government's rules. If you refuse service to anyone, it better not be based on religious or personal values. I fail to see how this case is any different than a business discriminating against a race.
    what in tarnation is the “business world”? private enterprises that do not provide necessary public services or accommodations should be free to discriminate against whomever they please on whatever basis they feel like. a wedding cake bakery does not provide lodging, facilitate travel or provide staple foods.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I fail to see how my last two sentences detract from my sound argument.

    And, low blow with the ute pic!
    You are painting an inherently complex issue in black and white terms. It is not that simple and it is not equivalent to racial discrimination.'

    Also, you said:

    Once you enter the business world, you play by the government's rules.
    The "government's rules" include freedom of religion. We have a classic case of competing interests here.
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  28. #28
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    My not so interesting prediction. The lower court ruling is overturned but in a narrow fashion.

    I will add that nothing in my religion prevents me from baking a cake for a gay wedding. I am forbidden from getting gay married, but not for attending or celebrating a gay wedding.


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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    The "government's rules" include freedom of religion. We have a classic case of competing interests here.
    But I suspect that religions that don't conform to recognizing gay marriage will become obsolete in the long run... so add this to my prediction: Someday gays will enjoy being married in the temple as well. Of course, they may not be married for time and "all eternity" for what may seem like an eternity but I would guess they will be married "for time" within my child's lifetime. Someday the church leadership may look back on the ban on gay marriage and write in their FAQ "we don't know where that came from."
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  30. #30
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    But I suspect that religions that don't conform to recognizing gay marriage will become obsolete in the long run... so add this to my prediction: Someday gays will enjoy being married in the temple as well. Of course, they may not be married for time and "all eternity" for what may seem like an eternity but I would guess they will be married "for time" within my child's lifetime. Someday the church leadership may look back on the ban on gay marriage and write in their FAQ "we don't know where that came from."
    Ha. You have to be the world's worst libertarian.
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

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