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Thread: Why cut taxes?

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    Semper infra dignitatem PaloAltoCougar's Avatar
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    Default Why cut taxes?

    OK, a snoozer of a thread, but the proposed tax cuts are bothering me...

    In part, I think, to move attention away from Russia, Trump and the GOP are really pushing for tax reform, which from what Iíve seen isnít really reform, but simply tax cuts. In the abstract, Iíd love to pay less in taxes, but I am seriously concerned about what we as a nation are leaving behind for our kids. Following WWII, the national debt as a percentage of GDP declined steadily until Reagan, when it started to climb again. That percentage peaked early in Clintonís presidency and then began to decline again until 9/11 and itís been rising ever since, although it dropped slightly at the end of Obamaís reign.

    Is it believed that lowering taxes will actually increase revenue because of an expanding economy? Iíve grown increasingly skeptical of that theory (why not cut taxes to 0.1% then and really watch the economy take off?). Or is it accepted that the debt will grow substantially but itís no big deal?

    I assume the conservative ideal is reducing the debt by reducing government expenditures AND reducing taxes, but given that discretionary government spending is an increasingly small part of government outlays, the prospect of significantly lower government spending seems pretty dim.

    Anyway, given the skyrocketing debt/GDP ratio, tell me why cutting taxes is a good idea.

    Hey, wake up!

  2. #2
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    I don't get it either. Pandering to your base?
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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Pandering to your donors?

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Pandering to your donors?

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    yeah, much closer to this.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    OK, a snoozer of a thread, but the proposed tax cuts are bothering me...

    In part, I think, to move attention away from Russia, Trump and the GOP are really pushing for tax reform, which from what Iíve seen isnít really reform, but simply tax cuts. In the abstract, Iíd love to pay less in taxes, but I am seriously concerned about what we as a nation are leaving behind for our kids. Following WWII, the national debt as a percentage of GDP declined steadily until Reagan, when it started to climb again. That percentage peaked early in Clintonís presidency and then began to decline again until 9/11 and itís been rising ever since, although it dropped slightly at the end of Obamaís reign.

    Is it believed that lowering taxes will actually increase revenue because of an expanding economy? Iíve grown increasingly skeptical of that theory (why not cut taxes to 0.1% then and really watch the economy take off?). Or is it accepted that the debt will grow substantially but itís no big deal?

    I assume the conservative ideal is reducing the debt by reducing government expenditures AND reducing taxes, but given that discretionary government spending is an increasingly small part of government outlays, the prospect of significantly lower government spending seems pretty dim.

    Anyway, given the skyrocketing debt/GDP ratio, tell me why cutting taxes is a good idea.

    Hey, wake up!
    lol at the bolded part. Otherwise I agree with your post.
    Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. ďColorado is on a par with Oregon,Ē he said. ďUtah isnít even in the picture.Ē

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    Is it believed that lowering taxes will actually increase revenue because of an expanding economy? I’ve grown increasingly skeptical of that theory (why not cut taxes to 0.1% then and really watch the economy take off?). Or is it accepted that the debt will grow substantially but it’s no big deal?
    Yeah, the government should just raise all the tax brackets by 25 or more percent instead since it has little or no impact on the economy. Everyone in congress could use a raise.

    The high debt is only a problem if our creditors don't like the idea that we are printing money to repay them... So far they could give a rat's ass where the money is coming from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
    lol at the bolded part. Otherwise I agree with your post.
    I accept your skepticism about the bolded part, but I'm not sure it's worthy of an lol. Watching the news for an hour this morning, CNN and MSNBC were all about the indictments; Fox focused on "tax reform" and Sen. Menendez's trial (a Democratic senator). I'd guess Fox and Hannity would laugh, too, at my suggestion Trump would like to change the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    I accept your skepticism about the bolded part, but I'm not sure it's worthy of an lol. Watching the news for an hour this morning, CNN and MSNBC were all about the indictments; Fox focused on "tax reform" and Sen. Menendez's trial (a Democratic senator). I'd guess Fox and Hannity would laugh, too, at my suggestion Trump would like to change the subject.
    FOX is ridiculous, but is an essential piece to keeping Trump's base together.
    Last edited by BlueK; 10-30-2017 at 10:50 AM.

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    Senior Member byu71's Avatar
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    I would like to see them raise taxes. The market is too high and we need to get back to 2% gdp instead of 3%.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by byu71 View Post
    I would like to see them raise taxes. The market is too high and we need to get back to 2% gdp instead of 3%.
    If you want the market to come down just wait for Trump to pull us out of NAFTA. Every time that subject comes up the market hiccups. And if we did actually trash NAFTA I think we'll have even bigger problems in the economy than the stock market going down, although that would certainly be a part of it.
    Last edited by BlueK; 10-30-2017 at 10:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by byu71 View Post
    I would like to see them raise taxes. The market is too high and we need to get back to 2% gdp instead of 3%.
    And they need to keep the corporate tax rate high so Apple isn't tempted to bring any of that money back onshore to get taxed... I don't want to see my AAPL takes a hit in value when they announce building another $5b space ship. Look at what the last one did to the neighborhood!
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    I accept your skepticism about the bolded part, but I'm not sure it's worthy of an lol. Watching the news for an hour this morning, CNN and MSNBC were all about the indictments; Fox focused on "tax reform" and Sen. Menendez's trial (a Democratic senator). I'd guess Fox and Hannity would laugh, too, at my suggestion Trump would like to change the subject.
    The news during the past week was that Mueller had shifted his focus to the Podesta Group; in particular, the relationship between the Manafort and the Podesta Group. The indictments focus basically on tax evasion and violations of the Foreign Agent Registrations Act that occurred long before he was the manager of Trump's campaign. A huge part of the indictment deals with wire transfers that were not properly disclosed, either under the FARA or for tax purposes. The indictments fall in line with the news regarding the Podesta Group.

    http://thehill.com/opinion/white-hou...ith-conspiracy

    What's more likely -- that Trump hired Manafort because of his experience in getting Reagan over the finish line re delegates the last time there was a close primary race in the GOP, or because of Manafort's Russian connections?

    I think it would much more correct to say the GOP is trying to engage in tax reform because Trump's approval is in the shitter because he acts like an idiot and has an insulting demeanor and personality and he threatens to take the GOP Congress down with him next year unless they have a domestic policy win.
    Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. ďColorado is on a par with Oregon,Ē he said. ďUtah isnít even in the picture.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Yeah, the government should just raise all the tax brackets by 25 or more percent instead since it has little or no impact on the economy.
    Obviously the tax rate can affect the growth rate, but the more the tax rate is reduced, the less impact it will have on growth. And if those tax rates don't align with spending the debt/deficit can have a greater impact on growth than the tax cut. Cutting spending and services can also have a negative effect on growth.

    I too would like to see real tax reform. I'm less concerned about a tax cut and am concerned about the debt.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    Is it believed that lowering taxes will actually increase revenue because of an expanding economy? Iíve grown increasingly skeptical of that theory (why not cut taxes to 0.1% then and really watch the economy take off?). Or is it accepted that the debt will grow substantially but itís no big deal?
    Back when I was working with a painting crew right after graduating, the favorite radio program was Limbaugh. I cannot tell you how many times we heard about when JFK cut taxes and the economy took off. I don't know any details, much less if that's even true. But it became accepted wisdom. Every conservative worker on the crew believed it, and it was a favorite gotcha line when arguing with the more liberal worker.

  15. #15

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    i think they should do the thing where rich people pay more taxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Back when I was working with a painting crew right after graduating, the favorite radio program was Limbaugh. I cannot tell you how many times we heard about when JFK cut taxes and the economy took off. I don't know any details, much less if that's even true. But it became accepted wisdom. Every conservative worker on the crew believed it, and it was a favorite gotcha line when arguing with the more liberal worker.
    diminishing returns. The tax rate was much higher before Kennedy and Reagan than it is today.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    i think they should do the thing where rich people pay more taxes.

    apologies to welders, PAC, lebowski and the like.
    I know that welders and PAC make more money than me, but Lebowski?!?

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I know that welders and PAC make more money than me, but Lebowski?!?
    dude is humble.
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  19. #19
    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    OK, a snoozer of a thread, but the proposed tax cuts are bothering me...

    In part, I think, to move attention away from Russia, Trump and the GOP are really pushing for tax reform, which from what I’ve seen isn’t really reform, but simply tax cuts. In the abstract, I’d love to pay less in taxes, but I am seriously concerned about what we as a nation are leaving behind for our kids. Following WWII, the national debt as a percentage of GDP declined steadily until Reagan, when it started to climb again. That percentage peaked early in Clinton’s presidency and then began to decline again until 9/11 and it’s been rising ever since, although it dropped slightly at the end of Obama’s reign.

    Is it believed that lowering taxes will actually increase revenue because of an expanding economy? I’ve grown increasingly skeptical of that theory (why not cut taxes to 0.1% then and really watch the economy take off?). Or is it accepted that the debt will grow substantially but it’s no big deal?

    I assume the conservative ideal is reducing the debt by reducing government expenditures AND reducing taxes, but given that discretionary government spending is an increasingly small part of government outlays, the prospect of significantly lower government spending seems pretty dim.

    Anyway, given the skyrocketing debt/GDP ratio, tell me why cutting taxes is a good idea.

    Hey, wake up!
    I would like to see tax reform that are revenue neutral or increase government revenues matched with a decrease in government spending. Think I could get elected?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    I would like to see tax reform that are revenue neutral or increase government revenues matched with a decrease in government spending. Think I could get elected?
    I know for a fact you would receive at least one vote. Beyond that, no promises.

  21. #21
    What's your deal? 8BR's Avatar
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    Paul Manafort was only hiding his cash b/c America has the highest corporate taxes. Paul's the real victim here!! We need to pass tax reform now.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by beefytee View Post
    Obviously the tax rate can affect the growth rate, but the more the tax rate is reduced, the less impact it will have on growth. And if those tax rates don't align with spending the debt/deficit can have a greater impact on growth than the tax cut. Cutting spending and services can also have a negative effect on growth.

    I too would like to see real tax reform. I'm less concerned about a tax cut and am concerned about the debt.
    Good thing we have the self-proclaimed "King of Debt" running the country now...

    "I understand debt better than probably anybody. I know how to deal with debt very well. I love debt -- but you know, debt is tricky and it's dangerous, and you have to be careful and you have to know what you're doing," Trump said.
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/09/politi...egy/index.html
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  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
    The news during the past week was that Mueller had shifted his focus to the Podesta Group; in particular, the relationship between the Manafort and the Podesta Group. The indictments focus basically on tax evasion and violations of the Foreign Agent Registrations Act that occurred long before he was the manager of Trump's campaign. A huge part of the indictment deals with wire transfers that were not properly disclosed, either under the FARA or for tax purposes. The indictments fall in line with the news regarding the Podesta Group.

    http://thehill.com/opinion/white-hou...ith-conspiracy

    What's more likely -- that Trump hired Manafort because of his experience in getting Reagan over the finish line re delegates the last time there was a close primary race in the GOP, or because of Manafort's Russian connections?

    I think it would much more correct to say the GOP is trying to engage in tax reform because Trump's approval is in the shitter because he acts like an idiot and has an insulting demeanor and personality and he threatens to take the GOP Congress down with him next year unless they have a domestic policy win.
    the kevin spacey defense. let's see who is works better for--spacey or paulie
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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Back when I was working with a painting crew right after graduating, the favorite radio program was Limbaugh. I cannot tell you how many times we heard about when JFK cut taxes and the economy took off. I don't know any details, much less if that's even true. But it became accepted wisdom. Every conservative worker on the crew believed it, and it was a favorite gotcha line when arguing with the more liberal worker.
    I too listened to a lot of Rush (the talk show host, not the overrated band) in my younger days. I remember the "Kennedy lowered taxes" mantra well. Not only did he say that the economy improved, but that tax revenues increased as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    diminishing returns. The tax rate was much higher before Kennedy and Reagan than it is today.
    This. The top marginal rate when Kennedy took office in 1961 was 91%, down from a WWII high of 94%. Not sure when Kennedy signed the tax relief bill (since he was assassinated in 1963) but the top marginal rate decreased for the 1964 tax year to 77%.

    The top marginal tax rate today is 39.6%.

    https://taxfoundation.org/us-federal...sted-brackets/
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    I too listened to a lot of Rush (the talk show host, not the overrated band) in my younger days. I remember the "Kennedy lowered taxes" mantra well. Not only did he say that the economy improved, but that tax revenues increased as well.
    I was about to go ballistic on you for the Rush dig, but then I remembered I only have a couple of Rush songs on my playlist. Great musicians, all, just not great songs.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I was about to go ballistic on you for the Rush dig, but then I remembered I only have a couple of Rush songs on my playlist. Great musicians, all, just not great songs.
    Maybe they just didn't want all the attention that accompanies greatness as a rock and roll band?
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    Semper infra dignitatem PaloAltoCougar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    ...The top marginal rate when Kennedy took office in 1961 was 91%, down from a WWII high of 94%. Not sure when Kennedy signed the tax relief bill (since he was assassinated in 1963) but the top marginal rate decreased for the 1964 tax year to 77%.

    The top marginal tax rate today is 39.6%....
    How solid were those top rates? As I vaguely recall from my early years, there were so many deductions, credits, and offsets that the difference between the effective tax rates at that time weren't all that different from today. I don't think anyone but the terminally stupid was paying taxes at those high-end rates, but let me know if I'm mistaken.
    Last edited by PaloAltoCougar; 10-30-2017 at 02:50 PM.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    My jaded opinion is that this is all about bases.

    The Democrats tend to promise increases in services and benefits to get their followers rilled up.

    The Republicans tend to promise tax cuts and a better economy.

    Basically - both are promising to improve the financial situation of their primary supporters.

  29. #29
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    How solid were those top rates? As I vaguely recall from my early years, there were so many deductions, credits, and offsets that the difference between the effective tax rates at that time weren't all that different from today. I don't think anyone but the terminally stupid was paying taxes at those high-end rates, but let me know if I'm mistaken.
    Great question. I've often heard tales of the tax shelters available prior to the Tax Reform Act of 1986, but my first hand firsthand first-hand experience is pretty limited since I was only 9 or 10 years old when Reagan signed it.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    Maybe they just didn't want all the attention that accompanies greatness as a rock and roll band?
    Good point. They could be quintessentially Canadian.

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