Anthem Mania

[frank ryan]

If you want to divide society to complain about a situation for which you have no solution why should society listen?

Rosa Parks had an elegant solution. That's why she and others achieved something. The current protests are ill- defined and appear to be without a pre-defined tangible goal. This is more like Arab Spring.

It's nothing like an Arab Spring. What a strange thing to say.

[Topper]

Really? What was Rosa Parks' "solution?" To get access to a bus? I doubt she (or more appropriately, the civil rights movement) was so short sighted.

I agree that this is a dumb thing to get up-in-arms about. But I do give a lot of credit to Kaepernick for moving the needle. Even though he got a fancy degree at Nevada, I think NFLers can be (and have been) great spokesmen for racial injustice.

These protests fail because they are top down.

Rosa Parks and the Freedom Riders conveyed a basic human message in a very real way. She wanted access to the whole bus. That is sublime, and it was supported by intellectual thought. She wasn't lecturing and spoke for real people.

The sad part of all is black people have a reason to complain and real problems that should be addressed. We are 150 years post emancipation and black people experience the highest crime, highest drug addiction, most poverty and shortest life expectancy. Should anybody be surprised? Society emancipated the slaves but didn't provide any tools to wrest the shackles and bonds of slavery, but just expected disenfranchised people to somehow rise within society. So here we are 150 years wondering why black people have it so hard. We did nothing to make it right other just cutting a chain while leaving it shackled on.

Obama had the chance to be a transformative President but he blew it. We could have reversed our trend, but unless we get it right by reinvesting in the communities of the people we once enslaved, we'll be sitting here with similar problems in 150 years. This movement needs to be bottoms up, not top down. Then the guy in the Bills Hat will finally see.

[Jeff Lebowski]

You've stated this more than once in this thread. Let me ask you this, are you against these protests because they bring to light what divides our society? And that leads to more conflict? Or do you support the 'cause' but feel these protests are the wrong way to go about improving the situation? If so, what would a better protest or spokesperson be?

Not sure what more I can add to my posts above. This particular approach is divisive and will simply add to the polarization of American politics.

What would I rather see? That is a good question. Maybe start with a movement to encourage constructive and meaningful political dialog. A movement to end polarization and divisiveness. Then perhaps something targeted at a specific societal ill with a specific solution and with a set of symbols and methods that work toward constructive dialog and winning hearts and minds. Ending mandatory minimum sentencing would be a great start.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

You've stated this more than once in this thread. Let me ask you this, are you against these protests because they bring to light what divides our society? And that leads to more conflict? Or do you support the 'cause' but feel these protests are the wrong way to go about improving the situation? If so, what would a better protest or spokesperson be?

As a conscientious objector he isn’t for or against either side.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Oh boy. Russian trolls using the anthem issue to incite more division.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireSto...scord-50135890

Russian internet trolls are exploiting the controversy over NFL players kneeling during the national anthem to stir up divisions in the United States, a Republican on the Senate intelligence committee said Wednesday.

Sen. James Lankford of Oklahoma said paid social media users, or "trolls," were hashtagging "take a knee" and "boycott NFL" to amplify the issue.

"They were taking both sides of the argument this past weekend, and pushing them out from their troll farms as much as they could to try to just raise the noise level in America and to make a big issue seem like an even bigger issue," Lankford said at a hearing of the Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee.

Lankford's account is the latest sign that Russians are using social media to raise tensions in the United States. Earlier this month, Facebook acknowledged hundreds of fake accounts, probably run from Russia, spent about $100,000 on ads aimed at stoking divisive issues such as gun control and race relations during the election.

[bluegoose]

These protests fail because they are top down.

Rosa Parks and the Freedom Riders conveyed a basic human message in a very real way. She wanted access to the whole bus. That is sublime, and it was supported by intellectual thought. She wasn't lecturing and spoke for real people.

The sad part of all is black people have a reason to complain and real problems that should be addressed. We are 150 years post emancipation and black people experience the highest crime, highest drug addiction, most poverty and shortest life expectancy. Should anybody be surprised? Society emancipated the slaves but didn't provide any tools to wrest the shackles and bonds of slavery, but just expected disenfranchised people to somehow rise within society. So here we are 150 years wondering why black people have it so hard. We did nothing to make it right other just cutting a chain while leaving it shackled on.

Obama had the chance to be a transformative President but he blew it. We could have reversed our trend, but unless we get it right by reinvesting in the communities of the people we once enslaved, we'll be sitting here with similar problems in 150 years. This movement needs to be bottoms up, not top down. Then the guy in the Bills Hat will finally see.

You're cherry picking your civil rights heroes. You site the virtue of the bottom-up approach by praising Rosa Parks actions (did she have and end-solution in mind when she first got on that bus?), while conveniently omitting the top-down approach of the most influential civil rights activist of all time, Dr. MLK.

But it is refreshing to see you advocating for reparations for black communities in America.

[bluegoose]

Nice post, bluegoose. A couple thoughts:

I find statements like this remarkable. You honestly don't see how people could misconstrue this as a sign of disrespect? Yes, you can explain all you want how it is really a sign of respect for the flag, anthom, etc. but if someone is in any way surprised that people take offense then there is tone-deafness and lack understanding on both sides.

FTR: I personally have zero problem with people taking a knee.

Probably misstated on my part in the original message yesterday. Obviously I can see why people would be upset by #takingaknee. I just think the angst is misguided. Again, show me where Kaep or other players have said anything negative toward vets or military personnel, which is what all of the anger is about. I've not read a single disparaging remark along those lines. Taking a knee is simply a method to draw attention to their cause. No disrespect intended toward anyone who has given all for their country. But since other outlets have been ineffective in effecting change, more visible methods had to be tried. And it has been remarkably effective in bringing about dialogue on the subject. But, it is yet to be seen if the outcomes will be successful. Like I said, I'm hopeful, but not necessarily optimistic.

This puzzles me too. The only way to draw attention to and to heal a divide is to amplify the divide?

Furthermore, you seem to want to have it both ways. You can't understand why people wouldn't see this as a simple sign of respect, yet at the same time are arguing that it is a protest (you contrast it with a sign of solidarity) designed to get people's attention. If there was ever any question that people would find it disrespectful, that question was answered long ago. I think this gesture was chosen (and is growing) precisely because of the visceral reaction it is getting.

Call me crazy, but the polarization of American politics is precisely what put that idiot Trump in the White House.

Did you ever shout at your kids when they were throwing an uncontrolled tantrum as a toddler, not because you were angry at them, but rather, to get their attention and to break the tantrum cycle? Sometimes talking through issues calmly and rationally is effective. Other times, when someone or some group is not listening, more extreme methods may have to be temporarily employed to draw one's attention.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Did you ever shout at your kids when they were throwing an uncontrolled tantrum as a toddler, not because you were angry at them, but rather, to get their attention and to break the tantrum cycle? Sometimes talking through issues calmly and rationally is effective. Other times, when someone or some group is not listening, more extreme methods may have to be temporarily employed to draw one's attention.

I also made them sit down on the couch and hold hands when they were fighting or yelling at one another. They hated that.

[frank ryan]

Oh boy. Russian trolls using the anthem issue to incite more division.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireSto...scord-50135890

Par for the course for our enemies/paid professional Trump astroturfers. As posted in the other thread, these guys are savvy at spreading chaos.

[Northwestcoug]

Not sure what more I can add to my posts above. This particular approach is divisive and will simply add to the polarization of American politics.

What would I rather see? That is a good question. Maybe start with a movement to encourage constructive and meaningful political dialog. A movement to end polarization and divisiveness. Then perhaps something targeted at a specific societal ill with a specific solution and with a set of symbols and methods that work toward constructive dialog and winning hearts and minds. Ending mandatory minimum sentencing would be a great start.

I guess I'm reacting towards the notion that this protest should not be supported, simply because it's 'divisive'. By their nature, any protest is divisive. The noblest of social causes started out with some type of protest that made people uncomfortable and sharply divided people into two camps.

If there is racial inequality in criminal justice (including police brutality), it will be uncomfortable for the side that is treated fairly to confront the truth. No one wants to believe that the society they succeed in could be systematically oppressing others. Of course any spokesperson who highlights that inequality is going to upset the majority's perception. And by definition, will be divisive.

Other than being divisive, would there be a better form of protest? I guess that's hard to say. Someone above brought up the effectiveness of Rosa Parks' protest. She didn't like inequality on the bus, so she sat somewhere else. The protest and its goal seemed very simple and effective. So yeah, if there was a better connection between the players' protest and their goals I guess it would have better optics. But I really do think we are just in the beginning stages of this. They are highlighting inequality. Let's see where it goes.

After all the protests, if the athletes do not publicize constructive changes to improve the inequality and nothing improves, then we can pass judgement.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I guess I'm reacting towards the notion that this protest should not be supported, simply because it's 'divisive'. By their nature, any protest is divisive. The noblest of social causes started out with some type of protest that made people uncomfortable and sharply divided people into two camps.

If there is racial inequality in criminal justice (including police brutality), it will be uncomfortable for the side that is treated fairly to confront the truth. No one wants to believe that the society they succeed in could be systematically oppressing others. Of course any spokesperson who highlights that inequality is going to upset the majority's perception. And by definition, will be divisive.

Other than being divisive, would there be a better form of protest? I guess that's hard to say. Someone above brought up the effectiveness of Rosa Parks' protest. She didn't like inequality on the bus, so she sat somewhere else. The protest and its goal seemed very simple and effective. So yeah, if there was a better connection between the players' protest and their goals I guess it would have better optics. But I really do think we are just in the beginning stages of this. They are highlighting inequality. Let's see where it goes.

After all the protests, if the athletes do not publicize constructive changes to improve the inequality and nothing improves, then we can pass judgement.

I agree that all protests are divisive to some degree and I am not against protests in general. I just don't think this one is well thought out, nor do I think it will be effective. Again, I hope I am wrong.

I love Rosa Parks. That was a smart protest by a sympathetic figure that resonated with people and brought about significant change.

[PaloAltoCougar]

As an aside, I've been thinking Trump's role in this is similar to Otter's in Animal House (sorry for the ancient film reference, but a classic is a classic) when he very disingenuously attacked the administration while under trial ("I'm not going to sit here while you badmouth the United States of America!"). Trump does the same thing when he wraps himself in the flag and decries the players' perceived (but nonexistent) attack on the flag, anthem and veterans. This, from a guy who called McCain a loser and not a hero because he was captured. A few of our past presidents would have used this moment to unite the nation, but Trump revels in doing the opposite.

[youtube]6PYb_anBMus[/youtube]

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

PAC, next time you come through this way let me buy you lunch at the Dexter Lake Club.

[PaloAltoCougar]

PAC, next time you come through this way let me buy you lunch at the Dexter Lake Club.

That'd be worth a trip for that reason alone. I hope Otis Day and the Knights will be performing. BTW, while visiting Eugene when PH got his degree, I went out of my way to visit various Faber College ("Knowledge is Good") sites, including the parade route. Perhaps it's time for another pilgrimage.

[byu71]

As an aside, I've been thinking Trump's role in this is similar to Otter's in Animal House (sorry for the ancient film reference, but a classic is a classic) when he very disingenuously attacked the administration while under trial ("I'm not going to sit here while you badmouth the United States of America!"). Trump does the same thing when he wraps himself in the flag and decries the players' perceived (but nonexistent) attack on the flag, anthem and veterans. This, from a guy who called McCain a loser and not a hero because he was captured. A few of our past presidents would have used this moment to unite the nation, but Trump revels in doing the opposite.

[youtube]6PYb_anBMus[/youtube]

Past Presidents would have united. I assume they are Presidents I know well ones from the 1800's?