Anthem Mania

[Bo Diddley]

B. freaking S.

They decided to use a sacred cow to make an unrelated point. For many that particular sacred cow hinges on ancestors, both recent and not so recent, who fought and even died for their country. That's about as personal as it gets. Most of these people, of which I am one, realize that we still have things we need to fix in this country.

I share the respect and love for those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. My good friend Jim was killed almost 7 years ago. He would have turned 52 today. I wear a black bracelet with his name on it and think of him every day. I remember the flag that draped his coffin when we laid him to rest, and I remember it folded and handed to his wife. I believe taking offense is a choice, and I choose not to. I also believe condemning is a choice, and I choose not to.

[Topper]

I share the respect and love for those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. My good friend Jim was killed almost 7 years ago. He would have turned 52 today. I wear a black bracelet with his name on it and think of him every day. I remember the flag that draped his coffin when we laid him to rest, and I remember it folded and handed to his wife. I believe taking offense is a choice, and I choose not to. I also believe condemning is a choice, and I choose not to.

I don't take offense because athletes are conforming to their social norms. In fact, I'd expect nothing less. However, I wager a majority can't identify why they are kneeling.

Some will say, as BG noted, the "racism" against the black man they see every day. Let me get this straight, multi-millionaire athletes living in secluded mansions are witness to overt institutional racism on a daily basis? I call bullshit. Institutional racism has been made unlawful since the Civil War Amendments and Civil Rights Act. We have had fifty years to eradicate systemic institutional racism in the forms of discrimination on the basis of race in employment, housing, payment, politics, education. The courts can and do eliminate or punish for these forms of overt racism. Does that mean there is not covert, cultural or socio-economic racism on an ad hoc basis? Of course not. But I seriously doubt wealthy individuals experience regularly in their exalted status. Among their peers it is a status symbol to be going along with the group. I believe they are insincere and dishonest.

Are there problems in poor communities? Absolutely. The War on Drugs did serious harm to poor black communities and that harm needs to be reversed. Are there cops who treat non-whites in an unlawful manner or even worse? Absolutely, and do the poor witness this more often than middle class or upper class? Without a doubt. But then again the denizens of the NFL do not inhabit these poor neighborhoods even though some may have originated there.

The problem with the protest is I don't know what they really want, and I don't know exactly what they are protesting. We have ueber wealthy athletes doing something to some people's sacred cow to upset them and then they are upset when those people are upset. (I am not upset that they are protesting, I am annoyed they highly intelligent people are ascribing noble motives to these athletes.)

And what you expect from men of a sport of rage, anger and a desire to hurt somebody? You think anybody will interpret their discombobulated protest to mean anything other than insult and anger? Are they protesting the killing of black men disproportionate to their numbers? Are they protesting the disproportionate incarceration? Are they protesting the police? Are they advocating wealth-redistribution? Are they alleging that this all by design? Are they saying non-black America needs to burn in protest? It is protest without a vision, without a message, just anger. Too many voices, no coherent direction. And the response should have been, "yawn."

So yes, I judge their protest as meaningless and a waste of time. It hasn't generated any real dollars to correct urban problems and it hasn't structurally changed society, just made people more angry. It won't lead to any positive change.

[bluegoose]

Good heavens topper. Read your last message again in the morning when you've had some rest. Maybe even consider revising it before too many people have had a chance to read it.


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[Topper]

Good heavens topper. Read your last message again in the morning when you've had some rest. Maybe even consider revising it before too many people have had a chance to read it.


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You are ascribing motives and intent to athletes who are not learned in sociology, social-psychology, law, education, economics, medicine, communication or healthcare. (Yes there are a few who meet this description but most do not.) These are men who taught to hurt one another and to play a game. Is that a harsh judgment to you? You think these persons to be thoughtful men of the arts, philosophy and social sciences? They haven't demonstrated any special insights into society's problems or proposed any workable solutions.

There are structural problems within many sectors of society, and they will likely not be remedied or eradicated in yours or my lifetime. They always exist.

But to ascribe noble purposes in this groupthink type exercise is silly IMHO. I am the eternal cynic on all things human, and question the motives of a wealthy, segregated segment of society seeking to lecture the rest of society.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I share the respect and love for those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. My good friend Jim was killed almost 7 years ago. He would have turned 52 today. I wear a black bracelet with his name on it and think of him every day. I remember the flag that draped his coffin when we laid him to rest, and I remember it folded and handed to his wife. I believe taking offense is a choice, and I choose not to. I also believe condemning is a choice, and I choose not to.

Thanks for posting this.

[bluegoose]

You are ascribing motives and intent to athletes who are not learned in sociology, social-psychology, law, education, economics, medicine, communication or healthcare. (Yes there are a few who meet this description but most do not.) These are men who taught to hurt one another and to play a game. Is that a harsh judgment to you? You think these persons to be thoughtful men of the arts, philosophy and social sciences? They haven't demonstrated any special insights into society's problems or proposed any workable solutions.

There are structural problems within many sectors of society, and they will likely not be remedied or eradicated in yours or my lifetime. They always exist.

But to ascribe noble purposes in this groupthink type exercise is silly IMHO. I am the eternal cynic on all things human, and question the motives of a wealthy, segregated segment of society seeking to lecture the rest of society.

Richard Sherman was born and raised in Compton. He went to Stanford as a two sport athlete, football and track. Graduated with a BS degree and had already started on his master degree prior to being drafted in the NFL. He is extremely intelligent and articulate. He has spoken publicly the last several weeks on some of the social problems we are facing as a society. (He's also a great actor on the big screen, as he plays the part of an asshole whenever it plays to his advantage in the psychology of sport).

-born in the ghetto, family and friends still live there; understands the plight and the struggles of the urban African American
-worked his way through, not just any college, but through BYU of the west.
-has taken advanced coursework in psychology and the social sciences

What was that you were saying about some of the NFL players not being qualified to speak on societal ills facing minorities and not having a clue about the cause they were kneeling for?




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[Topper]

Richard Sherman was born and raised in Compton. He went to Stanford as a two sport athlete, football and track. Graduated with a BS degree and had already started on his master degree prior to being drafted in the NFL. He is extremely intelligent and articulate. He has spoken publicly the last several weeks on some of the social problems we are facing as a society. (He's also a great actor on the big screen, as he plays the part of an asshole whenever it plays to his advantage in the psychology of sport).

-born in the ghetto, family and friends still live there; understands the plight and the struggles of the urban African American
-worked his way through, not just any college, but through BYU of the west.
-has taken advanced coursework in psychology and the social sciences

What was that you were saying about some of the NFL players not being qualified to speak on societal ills facing minorities and not having a clue about the cause they were kneeling for?




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Did you ignore my parenthetical? And by the way Richard Sherman is a total asshat. Of course those few athletes making it from Stanford to the pros will defy the norm.

[Northwestcoug]

I am going to go way out on a limb here and predict that the anthem protest will not unite our divided country nor will it make any real impact on police shootings. I hope I am wrong.

I am a conscientious objector in the culture wars.

You've stated this more than once in this thread. Let me ask you this, are you against these protests because they bring to light what divides our society? And that leads to more conflict? Or do you support the 'cause' but feel these protests are the wrong way to go about improving the situation? If so, what would a better protest or spokesperson be?

[Topper]

You've stated this more than once in this thread. Let me ask you this, are you against these protests because they bring to light what divides our society? And that leads to more conflict? Or do you support the 'cause' but feel these protests are the wrong way to go about improving the situation? If so, what would a better protest or spokesperson be?

What do you believe is the cause?

[Northwestcoug]

What do you believe is the cause?

Sorry, Topper. Even if you are innocently this ignorant after multiple posts in the thread, I'm not going to play.

[falafel]

You are ascribing motives and intent to athletes who are not learned in sociology, social-psychology, law, education, economics, medicine, communication or healthcare. (Yes there are a few who meet this description but most do not.) These are men who taught to hurt one another and to play a game. Is that a harsh judgment to you? You think these persons to be thoughtful men of the arts, philosophy and social sciences? They haven't demonstrated any special insights into society's problems or proposed any workable solutions.

There are structural problems within many sectors of society, and they will likely not be remedied or eradicated in yours or my lifetime. They always exist.

But to ascribe noble purposes in this groupthink type exercise is silly IMHO. I am the eternal cynic on all things human, and question the motives of a wealthy, segregated segment of society seeking to lecture the rest of society.

Dude, this is s bad post. Stop thinking that only people with advanced degrees can articulate intelligent arguments or are suitable to address the ills of society. Or, even more basic, that you are only allowed to protest if you also have the answer to the issue your are protesting.

[Pelado]

There is plenty of proof in this very thread that many intelligent, thoughtful, and good people just aren't seeing a divide worth protesting.

Please point out the "intelligent, thoughtful, and good people" on CS. TIA.

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[Topper]

Dude, this is s bad post. Stop thinking that only people with advanced degrees can articulate intelligent arguments or are suitable to address the ills of society. Or, even more basic, that you are only allowed to protest if you also have the answer to the issue your are protesting.

If you want to divide society to complain about a situation for which you have no solution why should society listen?

Rosa Parks had an elegant solution. That's why she and others achieved something. The current protests are ill- defined and appear to be without a pre-defined tangible goal. This is more like Arab Spring.

[Shaka]

I share the respect and love for those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. My good friend Jim was killed almost 7 years ago. He would have turned 52 today. I wear a black bracelet with his name on it and think of him every day. I remember the flag that draped his coffin when we laid him to rest, and I remember it folded and handed to his wife. I believe taking offense is a choice, and I choose not to. I also believe condemning is a choice, and I choose not to.

It's great that you choose not to condemn. However, it's not wrong for others to feel differently.

[Applejack]

If you want to divide society to complain about a situation for which you have no solution why should society listen?

Rosa Parks had an elegant solution. That's why she and others achieved something. The current protests are ill- defined and appear to be without a pre-defined tangible goal. This is more like Arab Spring.

Really? What was Rosa Parks' "solution?" To get access to a bus? I doubt she (or more appropriately, the civil rights movement) was so short sighted.

I agree that this is a dumb thing to get up-in-arms about. But I do give a lot of credit to Kaepernick for moving the needle. Even though he got a fancy degree at Nevada, I think NFLers can be (and have been) great spokesmen for racial injustice.