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Thread: 2018 BYU Recruiting

  1. #31
    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USUC View Post
    This is why BYU can't afford to wait for Ty to figure it out. Ty either figures it over the next couple of games or he needs to go.
    There are just systematic changes in the landscape of college football that does not portend well for BYU. Further, as angry as people want to get at Ty Detmer and Kevin Worthen, I am not sure there is a great deal BYU could do to more effectively deal with it. If Ty goes because he needs to go, clearly nobody will complain or think he was mistreated. However, that doesn't change the underlying challenges with recruiting, hiring coaches and finding some sane semblance of scheduling balance.

    Obviously Ty's performance up to now doesn't inspire a lot of confidence but I don't think things are as bad as the past 6 games would cause you to believe. BYU can still be a good non P5 program but that is not likely to make folks super jazzed - especially if Utah continues to manage itself as well as it is doing.
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    There are just systematic changes in the landscape of college football that does not portend well for BYU. Further, as angry as people want to get at Ty Detmer and Kevin Worthen, I am not sure there is a great deal BYU could do to more effectively deal with it. If Ty goes because he needs to go, clearly nobody will complain or think he was mistreated. However, that doesn't change the underlying challenges with recruiting, hiring coaches and finding some sane semblance of scheduling balance.

    Obviously Ty's performance up to now doesn't inspire a lot of confidence but I don't think things are as bad as the past 6 games would cause you to believe. BYU can still be a good non P5 program but that is not likely to make folks super jazzed - especially if Utah continues to manage itself as well as it is doing.
    We question whether we have living prophets, but I said this when Utah went Pac 12. If we don't land in a P5 conference, we will see slow deterioration of the program over 20 years to the point where we're at the level of the academies. We're only about a third of that 20 years into it and it's very obvious what it's doing to us. It affects the program at all levels: recruiting, fan support, donations, sexiness factor, etc. Throwing more money at the program is not going to do much unless it results in a conference change.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay santos View Post
    We question whether we have living prophets, but I said this when Utah went Pac 12. If we don't land in a P5 conference, we will see slow deterioration of the program over 20 years to the point where we're at the level of the academies. We're only about a third of that 20 years into it and it's very obvious what it's doing to us. It affects the program at all levels: recruiting, fan support, donations, sexiness factor, etc. Throwing more money at the program is not going to do much unless it results in a conference change.
    The unique aspect of both programs, in that for whatever reasons so much of the passion is tied to not being the other team, is debilitating for BYU right now. I don't think BYU football is a position to move on. There is too much zero sum in the situation for BYU to overcome. I agree with you. My point of more money is I think that is the only thing BYU can control that might help.

    Academy level might be a bit hyperbolic, but there are serious challenges that I am just not sure BYU can overcome without being included in the P5. If BYU does return to a lesser conference I think it will help to some extent by at least slowing it to some extent. It would give BYU a great excuse to schedule easier teams, build up wins and then only play a couple of big boys each year. Win one of those a year and suddenly people believe you might be better than you really are.

    To be clear I am not angry at BYU. I don't believe they botched the Big 12 situation or that the move to independence was a stupid move. I think that the challenges BYU faces are 90% external and outside of BYU's control. There is no reason to rage or hope firing somebody is going to significantly help - although this year indicates the coaches might not be great or even very good.
    Last edited by Goatnapper'96; 10-09-2017 at 08:45 AM.
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  4. #34
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    If BYU does return to a lesser conference I think it will help to some extent by at least slowing it to some extent. It would give BYU a great excuse to schedule easier teams, build up wins and then only play a couple of big boys each year. Win one of those a year and suddenly people believe you might be better than you really are.
    You have been arguing that more money is our only (yet slim) hope and then you suggest we should take huge pay cut to join a non-P5 conference.

    We are one season removed from 9-4 where each of the 4 losses was by a very slim margin. Lavell was right about BYU fans. They get too high after wins and too low after losses.
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  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    The unique aspect of both programs, in that for whatever reasons so much of the passion is tied to not being the other team, is debilitating for BYU right now. I don't think BYU football is a position to move on. There is too much zero sum in the situation for BYU to overcome. I agree with you. My point of more money is I think that is the only thing BYU can control that might help.

    Academy level might be a bit hyperbolic, but there are serious challenges that I am just not sure BYU can overcome without being included in the P5. If BYU does return to a lesser conference I think it will help to some extent by at least slowing it to some extent. It would give BYU a great excuse to schedule easier teams, build up wins and then only play a couple of big boys each year. Win one of those a year and suddenly people believe you might be better than you really are.

    To be clear I am not angry at BYU. I don't believe they botched the Big 12 situation or that the move to independence was a stupid move. I think that the challenges BYU faces are 90% external and outside of BYU's control. There is no reason to rage or hope firing somebody is going to significantly help - although this year indicates the coaches might not be great or even very good.
    I also don't blame anyone for the Big 12 situation. I'm a much less interesting Jay Santos in my upper 40's than I was in my early 30's. I don't really blame any of this on anyone. It is what it is. It just sucks. I doubt Ty Detmer is a top 50 D1 offensive coordinator. That was a little bit risky of a move that I was skeptical of from the beginning. I doubt Sitake is a top 50 D1 head coach, but he was probably the best we had available, and was the best thing to do to stop the bleeding on our biggest problem, which was losing top Poly recruits. But none of this is going to change our long term situation dramatically one direction or another.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    You have been arguing that more money is our only (yet slim) hope and then you suggest we should take huge pay cut to join a non-P5 conference.

    We are one season removed from 9-4 where each of the 4 losses was by a very slim margin. Lavell was right about BYU fans. They get too high after wins and too low after losses.
    Two competing needs:

    1.) Money. Clearly the independence model gets BYU more money. That is helpful.

    2.) More balanced scheduling. I think joining a conference offers BYU a more consistent and balanced schedule. It will also make it easier to get wins and all that something to play for in November yadda yadda yadda. Independent scheduling has some benefits but I do think BYU would get more wins if it were in the MWC or the AAC and could play that type of competition 8 -9 times every year.

    My point on money is probably more a criticism of the corporate culture than the cash generating structure via Indy or belonging to conference. For BYU to better compete with Utah, which I tend to think is very crucial to things, it is going to have to open the purse strings, IMO. I don't really know how much these folks are paid vis-a-vis Utah or other mid tier P5 programs but I tend to think that the reason Cahoon and Empey were hired was because BYU isn't paying all that well. If BYU comes out and says: we are interested in hiring the best coordinators and position coaches, as long as they are willing to live by BYU's rules, in college football and we are willing to roll out the millions of dollars every year that requires then I think BYU would be in a better position than they currently are. I also realize the likelihood that even if BYU was willing to pay unseemly amounts of money many folks would just not be interested in jumping into BYU's situation as a coordinator or assistant coach. But that is the only thing it seems to me BYU can control that would improve the football program over the long haul.

    Another edit. When BYU built its program, brand etc. It had the best coaches and it had them cheap because of one reason. BYU was the passing laboratory. So the Holmgrens, Chows, Tollners etc all came to BYU because it was doing something unique and the experience of coaching in that lab was worth the cheaper pay and the strange rules. BYU no longer has that advantage. It has a built in base of former players who it can try to rely upon and to some extent have been useful in keeping BYU hovering around relevancy enough to keep the ball rolling, but that is not going to work as well over the long haul as joining the salary arms race, IMO. The HC has to continue to be a believing temple recommend holding member, but the rest do not.
    Last edited by Goatnapper'96; 10-09-2017 at 09:09 AM.
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  7. #37

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    I have no idea what the solution is, but I'm highly skeptical that returning to a G5 conference is the answer. There are so many negative effects of going to a G5, that it would have to come with a huge upside in other areas to compensate.

    I kind of take the view that sometimes you have a down year and your opposition has better talent than you would normally expect. You grit your teeth and make the best of it, and circle the wagons again for next year. I understand that many fans aren't that patient, but that's the view I'm taking on this year. Let's figure out what we can learn from this to be a better team in the second half to help prepare us for next year.

    I'm not blind to some of the head-scratching play calling Ty is making, but I saw enough differences in play calling when Hodge was playing to indicate that Detmer has some kind of rationale for what he's doing. Nothing is going to get better by blowing things up mid-year and trying to install something new on offense. As good as Mangum looked as a recruit in HS and in all the camps, I think a big component of why we struggle are his decisions. He doesn't read through his progressions well, and it's been documented in film breakdown after film breakdown by former players on twitter that he's consistently not seeing wide open receivers. If you can fix little things like that, I think you can see major improvements in team results overall.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BYUMizzou View Post
    I have no idea what the solution is, but I'm highly skeptical that returning to a G5 conference is the answer. There are so many negative effects of going to a G5, that it would have to come with a huge upside in other areas to compensate.

    I kind of take the view that sometimes you have a down year and your opposition has better talent than you would normally expect. You grit your teeth and make the best of it, and circle the wagons again for next year. I understand that many fans aren't that patient, but that's the view I'm taking on this year. Let's figure out what we can learn from this to be a better team in the second half to help prepare us for next year.

    I'm not blind to some of the head-scratching play calling Ty is making, but I saw enough differences in play calling when Hodge was playing to indicate that Detmer has some kind of rationale for what he's doing. Nothing is going to get better by blowing things up mid-year and trying to install something new on offense. As good as Mangum looked as a recruit in HS and in all the camps, I think a big component of why we struggle are his decisions. He doesn't read through his progressions well, and it's been documented in film breakdown after film breakdown by former players on twitter that he's consistently not seeing wide open receivers. If you can fix little things like that, I think you can see major improvements in team results overall.
    How much of Tanner's depression issues explains his failure to develop as a qb? I think there is some bad luck at play here in a year that none of the big schools BYU played were down. They are not all world beaters but they range from very good to very solid. The USU loss was a poor indicator for the coaches inability to coagulate when things are going wrong, but like you I think it best to see where BYU stands when the dust settles. 6-6 is not bad for BYU these days in a rebuilding year.
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  9. #39
    Huge Member BigPiney's Avatar
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    I still think Tanner was injured at the beginning of the season.

    They, whoever they are, say that the game is supposed to slow down for someone that has been in the program long enough. But when I watch Tanner it seems the game is going at double time and he is panicking. He is not comfortable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigPiney View Post
    I still think Tanner was injured at the beginning of the season.

    They, whoever they are, say that the game is supposed to slow down for someone that has been in the program long enough. But when I watch Tanner it seems the game is going at double time and he is panicking. He is not comfortable.
    On that first drive against Boise State, he looked at the outside receiver before coming back inside for a big gain. There has been so little of that from him this season, that it really surprised me. He has not been going through progressions or looking off safeties, and that has made it difficult to complete passes and made interceptions much more likely.

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    Tanner looked decent at the beginning of the game on Friday but got considerably worse as it wore on. I'm guessing his ankle really started bothering him.

    I know we are staring down some really difficult systemic problems, but the eternal optimist in me wants to believe that Tanner will get healthy in the offseason and come back and put together a fantastic senior season, finally living up to expectations like John Beck did. The problem is Dr. Anae isn't here to lead him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    Tanner looked decent at the beginning of the game on Friday but got considerably worse as it wore on. I'm guessing his ankle really started bothering him..
    I listened to Ty's Coordinator Corner show today. He said the same thing about Mangum's first drive versus his later play in the game. Detmer didn't blame it on the ankle, but he did say the same thing - that Mangum (and the whole offense) made little mistakes throughout the game that they didn't make on the first drive. Ty's point was that it only takes one person failing to execute to stall a team on offense. The theme I got from his interview is that Ty doesn't think you can blame it all on one person. There were different things throughout the game that caused our offensive breakdowns. On one play it was a hold by an OL. The next drive it was a bad read by the QB. Then it was something else the next drive.

    Ty is a genuinely nice guy. He's not going to throw anyone under the bus. He got asked about his nephew, and he gave the most diplomatic answer I've ever heard. He complimented Koy on what good qualities Koy has, and then started complimenting Critchlow on his good qualities. Based on that I'm not sure Ty is going to come out and say where he thinks the problems are if it involves throwing a specific player under the bus.

    Also, for a second, I thought Bronco was back in town when he talked on about how we just need to execute.

  13. #43

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    QB play will make or break an offense. I really think Tanner's anxiety issues are a large factor. I think the coaches see this too, and that's why they burned Critchlow's redshirt. I think they're hoping they can work him into the offense with positive results, and replace Tanner at some point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    QB play will make or break an offense. I really think Tanner's anxiety issues are a large factor. I think the coaches see this too, and that's why they burned Critchlow's redshirt. I think they're hoping they can work him into the offense with positive results, and replace Tanner at some point.
    I think Critchlow is similar to Taysom in 2012. I think they have decided he is the next man up but I don't think they want to throw him to the wolves until post MSU.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    On that first drive against Boise State, he looked at the outside receiver before coming back inside for a big gain. There has been so little of that from him this season, that it really surprised me. He has not been going through progressions or looking off safeties, and that has made it difficult to complete passes and made interceptions much more likely.

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    Yes he did, I remember that play. Also on the drive where he stepped up in the pocket and threw to Bushman for a big gain.

    The problem is that we can only point to a handful of times in a game where he made a good play. The rest of the time he's locked on to Bushman, throwing dirtballs or behind the receivers, leaving the pocket for no reason, going for a 40 yard bomb on 4th and 6, etc.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BYUMizzou View Post
    I listened to Ty's Coordinator Corner show today. He said the same thing about Mangum's first drive versus his later play in the game. Detmer didn't blame it on the ankle, but he did say the same thing - that Mangum (and the whole offense) made little mistakes throughout the game that they didn't make on the first drive. Ty's point was that it only takes one person failing to execute to stall a team on offense. The theme I got from his interview is that Ty doesn't think you can blame it all on one person. There were different things throughout the game that caused our offensive breakdowns. On one play it was a hold by an OL. The next drive it was a bad read by the QB. Then it was something else the next drive.

    Ty is a genuinely nice guy. He's not going to throw anyone under the bus. He got asked about his nephew, and he gave the most diplomatic answer I've ever heard. He complimented Koy on what good qualities Koy has, and then started complimenting Critchlow on his good qualities. Based on that I'm not sure Ty is going to come out and say where he thinks the problems are if it involves throwing a specific player under the bus.

    Also, for a second, I thought Bronco was back in town when he talked on about how we just need to execute.
    There's another way to tell that story too: BYU comes out looking, well, decent, and then falls apart after the other side makes any kind of adjustment. That's the story of the Wisconsin game (scored a field goal on the first drive and only once thereafter), Utah State (got a 14-point lead before falling to pieces), and now Boise State. That sounds awfully consistent with what one would expect of a coaching staff that understands the game well enough to write it up on a chalkboard but not to coach a team through 60 minutes of play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    Yes he did, I remember that play. Also on the drive where he stepped up in the pocket and threw to Bushman for a big gain.

    The problem is that we can only point to a handful of times in a game where he made a good play. The rest of the time he's locked on to Bushman, throwing dirtballs or behind the receivers, leaving the pocket for no reason, going for a 40 yard bomb on 4th and 6, etc.
    I still don't mind the 4th down play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    Yes he did, I remember that play. Also on the drive where he stepped up in the pocket and threw to Bushman for a big gain.

    The problem is that we can only point to a handful of times in a game where he made a good play. The rest of the time he's locked on to Bushman, throwing dirtballs or behind the receivers, leaving the pocket for no reason, going for a 40 yard bomb on 4th and 6, etc.
    Exactly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    I still don't mind the 4th down play.
    I agree with you on the 4th down and 1 in the 4th quarter. I think we were already down 3 scores, so it's not like we just needed to convert the fourth down - we needed points. The play was open - they just didn't execute it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    I still don't mind the 4th down play.


    I do. We have so rarely connected on that deep pass this year, it was critical that we keep that drive alive, and we have a bruising running back that likely would've have gotten the yard. We outsmarted ourselves. It was a HORRIBLE call.

  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post


    I do. We have so rarely connected on that deep pass this year, it was critical that we keep that drive alive, and we have a bruising running back that likely would've have gotten the yard. We outsmarted ourselves. It was a HORRIBLE call.
    it actually wasn't critical to keep that drive alive unless your goal is to simply lose by less. they were down 24-7 with 11 minutes to play. if they convert, best case scenario, they continue to plod down the field, taking 3-4 more minutes off the clock and they still lose the game. the only chance they had to win was to use that 4th and 1 to get single coverage, perhaps catch Boise off guard and hope Mangum gets lucky and throws a good pass for a quick score. that didn't happen, but if they run UT for a yard, they lose regardless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    it actually wasn't critical to keep that drive alive unless your goal is to simply lose by less. they were down 24-7 with 11 minutes to play. if they convert, best case scenario, they continue to plod down the field, taking 3-4 more minutes off the clock and they still lose the game. the only chance they had to win was to use that 4th and 1 to get single coverage, perhaps catch Boise off guard and hope Mangum gets lucky and throws a good pass for a quick score. that didn't happen, but if they run UT for a yard, they lose regardless.
    To say the only chance they had to win, with 11 minutes left, is to go deep instead of getting the first down seems, well, not trying to be rude, but, it seems like you're nuts. If they get a yard they get four more downs. 4 more chances to go deep downfield if that's what they desire.

  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    To say the only chance they had to win, with 11 minutes left, is to go deep instead of getting the first down seems, well, not trying to be rude, but, it seems like you're nuts. If they get a yard they get four more downs. 4 more chances to go deep downfield if that's what they desire.
    That's just it, this is BYU - they aren't making a play deep downfield when the defense is ready for it because they suck. they would have wasted the time and lost the game anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    it actually wasn't critical to keep that drive alive unless your goal is to simply lose by less. they were down 24-7 with 11 minutes to play. if they convert, best case scenario, they continue to plod down the field, taking 3-4 more minutes off the clock and they still lose the game. the only chance they had to win was to use that 4th and 1 to get single coverage, perhaps catch Boise off guard and hope Mangum gets lucky and throws a good pass for a quick score. that didn't happen, but if they run UT for a yard, they lose regardless.
    Let's say they convert the first down and score a TD in the next two minutes. Then we are down only 10 points with 9 minutes left in the game. That's not insurmountable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Let's say they convert the first down and score a TD in the next two minutes. Then we are down only 10 points with 9 minutes left in the game. That's not insurmountable.
    Lets just say that Tawny Kitaen had returned my calls in the 1980's. I could have gotten David Cloverdale's Jaguar Ornament back for him and perhaps her life turns out quite a bit better and then '71 doesn't feel so bad about changing his own oil to her mug shots.

    Your scenario and mine have similar probabilities.
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  26. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    QB play will make or break an offense. I really think Tanner's anxiety issues are a large factor. I think the coaches see this too, and that's why they burned Critchlow's redshirt. I think they're hoping they can work him into the offense with positive results, and replace Tanner at some point.
    They burned the redshirt because of Tanner's health troubles and the lack of a solid backup with the potential to be starter. Tanner's not being replaced at this point unless he's too hurt to play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    They burned the redshirt because of Tanner's health troubles and the lack of a solid backup with the potential to be starter. Tanner's not being replaced at this point unless he's too hurt to play.
    And honestly if Tanner and Beau are back next year assuming we see improvement. Critchlow is not starting next year either, so he can redshirt in 2018 if he really feels the desire.
    *Banned*

  28. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by cougjunkie View Post
    And honestly if Tanner and Beau are back next year assuming we see improvement. Critchlow is not starting next year either, so he can redshirt in 2018 if he really feels the desire.
    Excellent point. Although there are some who have watched many practices who say that Critchlow throws the best ball of any of the QBs currently on the team.

  29. #59
    Striving for mediocrity Art Vandelay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cougjunkie View Post
    And honestly if Tanner and Beau are back next year assuming we see improvement. Critchlow is not starting next year either, so he can redshirt in 2018 if he really feels the desire.
    I had forgotten Tanner has another year. Greyshirts and missions really do make it a long time from when we first introduced to these kids. That changes my perspective on this season and giving him reps. If he was a senior, there is little value in playing him (other than showing hardwork is rewarded by KS).

  30. #60
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    Lets just say that Tawny Kitaen had returned my calls in the 1980's. I could have gotten David Cloverdale's Jaguar Ornament back for him and perhaps her life turns out quite a bit better and then '71 doesn't feel so bad about changing his own oil to her mug shots.

    Your scenario and mine have similar probabilities.
    I get it. But that's not the point. You play to win the game.

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