Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 44

Thread: The Washington Hypothesis

  1. #1
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    43,231

    Default The Washington Hypothesis

    I guess we should get a thread started on this, because it is the latest rage in Mormon culture. Amateur LDS historian Timothy Ballard has thrown together a series of stories about George Washington and spins everything as a series of miracles necessary to set the stage for the restoration of the gospel.

    https://www.amazon.com/Washington-Hy.../dp/1629721786

    A central story in the book is a purported vision that Washington had where he **may** have been visited by Moroni. The book is flying off the shelves and Deseret Book. Last week my HPG leader spent half his lesson raving about it. Today my wife said that the GD teacher featured it in his lesson. Was talking to a friend yesterday from Sandy and he said that everyone is his ward is reading it.

    Turns out that legit LDS historians are less thrilled. Here is an interesting review by Ardis Parshall:

    http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2017/0...-deseret-book/

    She argues that he whole Washington vision thing is hogwash and the book is manipulative schlock Deseret Book should be ashamed to be associated with.

    Anybody else hearing some buzz on this?
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  2. #2
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The Holy Land
    Posts
    13,800

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I guess we should get a thread started on this, because it is the latest rage in Mormon culture. Amateur LDS historian Timothy Ballard has thrown together a series of stories about George Washington and spins everything as a series of miracles necessary to set the stage for the restoration of the gospel.

    https://www.amazon.com/Washington-Hy.../dp/1629721786

    A central story in the book is a purported vision that Washington had where he **may** have been visited by Moroni. The book is flying off the shelves and Deseret Book. Last week my HPG leader spent half his lesson raving about it. Today my wife said that the GD teacher featured it in his lesson. Was talking to a friend yesterday from Sandy and he said that everyone is his ward is reading it.

    Turns out that legit LDS historians are less thrilled. Here is an interesting review by Ardis Parshall:

    http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2017/0...-deseret-book/

    She argues that he whole Washington vision thing is hogwash and the book is manipulative schlock Deseret Book should be ashamed to be associated with.

    Anybody else hearing some buzz on this?
    No buzz, but I'm pretty far away from The Center.

    Yo, Moroni may have visited a lot of people. Prove he didn't!

    I think she gives Ballard too much of a pass. Cynical me says it's all about selling books and Ballard and those folks at DB and Amazon gotta make a living.

    Looks like he wrote a similar book, The Lincoln Hypothesis: A Modern-day Abolitionist investigates the possible Connection between Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and Abraham Lincoln, published by DB back in 2014.

    The Lincoln Hypothesis reveals documented evidence that Abraham Lincoln did, in fact, check out the Book of Mormon as he struggled with making some of the most critical decisions of his presidency. Did he read it? Did it influence him? Was the Book of Mormon a key factor in Lincoln's success and the healing of a nation? The author states, as you read, you will, like a prosecutor reviewing a case, or like a jury determining a verdict, identify valuable pieces of evidence that can be fully substantiated. You will also identify pieces of evidence that cannot. I ask you to consider all the evidence and weigh it all accordingly. Through this study, many questions regarding the interplay between the restored gospel and the Civil War will be answered. New questions may emerge that will not be so easily answered. Either way, in the end you will find yourself on a most exhilarating investigative journey.
    It's a series. Can't wait for the Coolidge Hypothesis!
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

  3. #3
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    43,231

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    No buzz, but I'm pretty far away from The Center.

    Yo, Moroni may have visited a lot of people. Prove he didn't!

    I think she gives Ballard too much of a pass. Cynical me says it's all about selling books and Ballard and those folks at DB and Amazon gotta make a living.

    Looks like he wrote a similar book, The Lincoln Hypothesis: A Modern-day Abolitionist investigates the possible Connection between Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and Abraham Lincoln, published by DB back in 2014.

    It's a series. Can't wait for the Coolidge Hypothesis!
    Yeah, I forgot to mention the Lincoln hypothesis. I guess it turns out that Abraham Lincoln secretly used the book of Mormon to guide all of his critical decisions during the Civil War. Sounds totally believable!
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  4. #4

    Default

    I have never heard of this totally plausible theory. But I'm not in Utah county or high priest group, so I'm sure that I miss lots of valuable hypotheses.

  5. #5
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    43,231

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I have never heard of this totally plausible theory. But I'm not in Utah county or high priest group, so I'm sure that I miss lots of valuable hypotheses.
    Yes, because if this board has taught us anything, it's that crazy things in the church only happen in Utah.
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Davis County
    Posts
    5,613

    Default

    I'd heard of the Lincoln Hypothesis - just this last week in fact - and thought the premise was interesting. I'd even thought about picking it up to read.

    This is the first I've heard of the Washington Hypothesis.

    Funny - but the Washington Hypothesis seems to me to kill any credibility that the Lincoln Hypothesis may have had. But maybe that's just because I gave the Lincoln Hypothesis way too much credit to begin with, and the author reveals himself by writing the second book.

    I'll probably avoid both now.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yes, because if this board has taught us anything, it's that crazy things in the church only happen in Utah.
    Crazy things aren't exclusive to Utah, but crazy things almost always have their beginning there. (And Texas; Texas is it's own brand of crazy)

  8. #8
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    43,231

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Crazy things aren't exclusive to Utah, but crazy things almost always have their beginning there. (And Texas; Texas is it's own brand of crazy)
    OK that makes sense. All of the non-Utah Mormons love and admire the Utah Mormons so much but that they can't help but copy everything they do.

    The Applejack Hypothesis!
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  9. #9

    Default

    Oh great, the author is a hero that saves children from sex slavery.

    I hate this kind of stuff so bad. Just when you think the church is making progress with literal-fundamentalistic thinking, stuff like this comes around.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jay santos View Post
    Oh great, the author is a hero that saves children from sex slavery.

    I hate this kind of stuff so bad. Just when you think the church is making progress with literal-fundamentalistic thinking, stuff like this comes around.
    Wait, really? Like the stuff Hillary was doing at Comet Pizza?

  11. #11
    𐐐𐐄𐐢𐐆𐐤𐐝 𐐓𐐅 𐐜 𐐢𐐃𐐡𐐔 Uncle Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Where ∑ ★'s = 1
    Posts
    16,937

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I guess we should get a thread started on this, because it is the latest rage in Mormon culture. Amateur LDS historian Timothy Ballard has thrown together a series of stories about George Washington and spins everything as a series of miracles necessary to set the stage for the restoration of the gospel.

    https://www.amazon.com/Washington-Hy.../dp/1629721786

    A central story in the book is a purported vision that Washington had where he **may** have been visited by Moroni. The book is flying off the shelves and Deseret Book. Last week my HPG leader spent half his lesson raving about it. Today my wife said that the GD teacher featured it in his lesson. Was talking to a friend yesterday from Sandy and he said that everyone is his ward is reading it.

    Turns out that legit LDS historians are less thrilled. Here is an interesting review by Ardis Parshall:

    http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2017/0...-deseret-book/

    She argues that he whole Washington vision thing is hogwash and the book is manipulative schlock Deseret Book should be ashamed to be associated with.

    Anybody else hearing some buzz on this?

    I haven't read any of the guy's books but I have met him and talked with him a bit. He heads up this charity group called "Operation Underground Railroad" which helps set up sting operations for sex traffickers. He use to work for the DHS as a special agent and saw this stuff going on but due to the government regulations couldn't do anything about it. Finally he quite the DHS and help set up this non-profit that trains and helps foreign governments set up stings to catch sex traffickers. Seems like a reasonable guy to me.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  12. #12
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    The Republic of Tejas
    Posts
    19,267

    Default

    No buzz in my stake, yet. Sometimes it take a month or two for the Utah crazy to make it to Texas.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  13. #13
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    South Jordan, UT
    Posts
    2,269

    Default

    Haven't heard a word about it in South Jordan, but South Jordan is not in Utah County or Davis County, thank goodness.

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    Haven't heard a word about it in South Jordan, but South Jordan is not in Utah County or Davis County, thank goodness.
    It's not??? Cache county?

  15. #15
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    43,231

    Default The Washington Hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    Haven't heard a word about it in South Jordan, but South Jordan is not in Utah County or Davis County, thank goodness.
    Sorry, I misspoke earlier. My buddy lives in South Jordan, not Sandy. Not far from the temple. Everybody in his ward is talking about it.
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  16. #16
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    South Jordan, UT
    Posts
    2,269

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Sorry, I misspoke earlier. My buddy lives in South Jordan, not Sandy. Not far from the temple. Everybody in his ward is talking about it.
    Probably one of those creeps that lives in Daybreak. Bunch of weirdos, they are.

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Sorry, I misspoke earlier. My buddy lives in South Jordan, not Sandy. Not far from the temple. Everybody in his ward is talking about it.
    This thread was first I heard of it. We have a few God and 'Merica types in the ward, so I'm sure it will come up.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Harlem
    Posts
    7,275

    Default

    My wife and I have donated to OUR. It seems like an outstanding organization that does amazing work from everything we have read. I hadn't heard of Timothy's books before and do not plan to read them.

  19. #19
    𐐐𐐄𐐢𐐆𐐤𐐝 𐐓𐐅 𐐜 𐐢𐐃𐐡𐐔 Uncle Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Where ∑ ★'s = 1
    Posts
    16,937

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Crazy things aren't exclusive to Utah, but crazy things almost always have their beginning there. (And Texas; Texas is it's own brand of crazy)
    I think you are confusing the People's Republic of Austin with Texas...

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  20. #20
    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Up from third base to Huntington
    Posts
    9,022

    Default

    I saw Parshell's response before I'd ever heard about the book, but one of my early-morning seminary teachers was pretty mad at her husband when he posted this to her FB timeline.
    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

    "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

  21. #21
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    43,231

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    I haven't read any of the guy's books but I have met him and talked with him a bit. He heads up this charity group called "Operation Underground Railroad" which helps set up sting operations for sex traffickers. He use to work for the DHS as a special agent and saw this stuff going on but due to the government regulations couldn't do anything about it. Finally he quite the DHS and help set up this non-profit that trains and helps foreign governments set up stings to catch sex traffickers. Seems like a reasonable guy to me.
    Yeah, same dude. I can't help but wonder if he distorts the truth about his organization also. Kind of like that Three Cups of Tea guy that made up all those stories about building schools in Nepal.
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  22. #22
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    43,231

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    I saw Parshell's response before I'd ever heard about the book, but one of my early-morning seminary teachers was pretty mad at her husband when he posted this to her FB timeline.
    Posted what? The Parshall article?
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I have never heard of this totally plausible theory. But I'm not in Utah county or high priest group, so I'm sure that I miss lots of valuable hypotheses.
    Maybe if you went to GD you would be a high priest.
    A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. - Mohammad Ali

  24. #24
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    43,231

    Default

    Two more articles/blog posts by Ardis Parshall debunking Washington's Vision:

    http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2016/0...ge-washington/

    http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/0...iety-magazine/
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  25. #25
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    43,231

    Default

    And another essay by a different LDS historian on the BCC blog.

    https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/04/...he-mormon-god/

    To say these “hypotheses” lack credibility would be an understatement. They frankly misinterpret sources and evidences, ignore literally centuries of scholarship, and make a mush of the historian’s craft. What’s especially egregious is that Washington and Lincoln have probably received more attention than anyone else in American history, and to think that a hobbyist found evidence that not only everyone else overlooked, but evidence that completely contradicts everything else that has been written and is available, is more than a tad jejune. As a historian, this kind of thing makes me cringe. These types of books severely hurt Deseret Book’s credibility and stagnate the development of the Mormon community’s historical consciousness.
    1000 amens to this part:

    But more important than being offended as a historian, I’m offended as a Mormon. More than just a mistaken jaunt into historical malfeasance, these books embody a certain strain of cultural parochialism that still plagues certain spheres of my faith tradition: we are unable to recognize good done outside of the Mormon faith. We’ve been so entrenched on the belief that we have a monopoly on truth and goodness, that progress is only achieved through our form of divine assistance and revelation, that the accomplishments of other individuals, whether contemporary or antecedent to the restoration, pose a profound theological problem. Sure, we talk about the “light of Christ” tinging all of humanity, but then follow that up by reaffirming that such is not enough. When we posit our faith as the pinnacle of civilization, we must find ways to maintain that civilizational chain of being. So we make these figures Mormon, both through our proxy rituals and our mental gymnastics. And more than just retaining a form of spiritual adolescence, this mindset has practical implications: it precludes our ability to look externally for assistance and inspiration.

    Our community needs to learn how to appreciate historical actors without first having to baptize them.
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  26. #26
    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Up from third base to Huntington
    Posts
    9,022

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Posted what? The Parshall article?
    Yeah. it was sort of a "I told you so"
    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

    "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

  27. #27
    𐐐𐐄𐐢𐐆𐐤𐐝 𐐓𐐅 𐐜 𐐢𐐃𐐡𐐔 Uncle Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Where ∑ ★'s = 1
    Posts
    16,937

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yeah, same dude. I can't help but wonder if he distorts the truth about his organization also. Kind of like that Three Cups of Tea guy that made up all those stories about building schools in Nepal.
    Yeah, I was invited (by a friend) to a charity event where this guy was speaking. He gave some very interesting stories about the sting operations he has done. Given that he was featured on various MSM news reports, some which went under cover with him, I suspect he was telling the truth. Of course, one of those was featured on CNN so you never know.

    The guy seems like one of those ultra conservative types. His wife didn't want him to do the undercover sex trafficking sting stuff because of the types of people he would be exposed too. But after describing the children he met with his DHS work they agreed he had to do it (i.e., "I have to do it for the children").

    I never ended up donating even though he said donors are sometimes invited to go on the sting missions. I asked if they would let me carry a gun on one of the stings and when I was told no I guess I stopped listening.
    Last edited by Uncle Ted; 07-10-2017 at 09:04 AM.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "I never preached in Texas, but I have preached in places as wicked..." -Brigham Young.
    "If we do nothing we'll be substantially behind (other Power leagues) a decade from now." -Bob Bowlsby on Big 12 expansion.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  28. #28
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Orygun
    Posts
    609

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    I think you are confusing the People's Republic of Austin with Texas...


  29. #29
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    43,231

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    I think you are confusing the People's Republic of Austin with Texas...

    A great clip from a great movie.
    "Socialism is not bad IMHO" - byu71
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Orygun
    Posts
    609

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    my faith tradition
    The use of that phrase usually makes me want to

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •