Impeaching Trump: Make America Sane Again

[frank ryan]

It seems that what most people hate about Trump is his indecorousness. There is enough about his governance and policies that either democrats or republicans ought to support enough to find him tolerable. For example, he has taken the wind out of Sanders' sails on trade and globalism, his protectionism being something democrats at least promised or threatened during elections, while making war with health insurers and pharmaceutical companies. His conflicts with China and support for Hong Kong should please both parties though perhaps for different reasons. He detests war, no matter how ignoble to avoid it, which ought to find support across the political spectrum. The left really doesn't support immigration as it drives down labor's wages and takes their jobs--that is they myth in any event and why the democrats are as to blame as republicans for failing to fix any immigration problems. The Koch brothers split with him on immigration and trade. His plain spoken condemnation of socialism is welcome to hear in response to the mendacity and false piety of Sanders and Warren. But he's boorish and a pig. How much should that matter? I'm just playing devil's advocate.

He's eroding our soft-power and gutting our intelligence services by virtue of being untrustworthy and burning human intel sources in places like Syria. He antagonizes our allies, threatens NATO, with, I should mention, made-up bullshit. He fellates dictators, and has freely given away valuable political capital to the DPRK with nothing to show in return. I'm not sure where you get the idea he detests war. He hasn't bombed anyone?

He's pardoned war crimanals and racists like Joe Arpiao. Stephen Miller, a despicable white supremicist reigns supreme on immigration issues. He's curtailed legal immigration, and lowered refugee caps to new lows. He actively enfranchises racists and bigots.

He also rambles incoherently at times, throws trantrums and morphs into a toddler. He canceled a trip because Denmark did not want to sell Greenland.

I hate Trump and I admit it, but my assessment is valid. You seem quite fond of the guy but won't admit. Also, you've got a low-threshold for tolerable governance.

[Uncle Ted]

He's eroding our soft-power and gutting our intelligence services by virtue of being untrustworthy and burning human intel sources in places like Syria. He antagonizes our allies, threatens NATO, with, I should mention, made-up bullshit. He fellates dictators, and has freely given away valuable political capital to the DPRK with nothing to show in return. I'm not sure where you get the idea he detests war. He hasn't bombed anyone?

He's pardoned war crimanals and racists like Joe Arpiao. Stephen Miller, a despicable white supremicist reigns supreme on immigration issues. He's curtailed legal immigration, and lowered refugee caps to new lows. He actively enfranchises racists and bigots.

He also rambles incoherently at times, throws trantrums and morphs into a toddler. He canceled a trip because Denmark did not want to sell Greenland.

I hate Trump and I admit it, but my assessment is valid. You seem quite fond of the guy but won't admit. Also, you've got a low-threshold for tolerable governance.

You forgot the part how Drumpf has totally wrecked the economy...

economic growth rate slowed to a near 30-year low in the third quarter, hurting the income of its poorest.

https://www.aljazeera.com/ajimpact/c...025254331.html

Oh wait... that is China's economy. NVM.

[PaloAltoCougar]

It seems that what most people hate about Trump is his indecorousness. There is enough about his governance and policies that either democrats or republicans ought to support enough to find him tolerable. For example, he has taken the wind out of Sanders' sails on trade and globalism, his protectionism being something democrats at least promised or threatened during elections, while making war with health insurers and pharmaceutical companies. His conflicts with China and support for Hong Kong should please both parties though perhaps for different reasons. He detests war, no matter how ignoble to avoid it, which ought to find support across the political spectrum. The left really doesn't support immigration as it drives down labor's wages and takes their jobs--that is they myth in any event and why the democrats are as to blame as republicans for failing to fix any immigration problems. The Koch brothers split with him on immigration and trade. His plain spoken condemnation of socialism is welcome to hear in response to the mendacity and false piety of Sanders and Warren. But he's boorish and a pig. How much should that matter? I'm just playing devil's advocate.

His indecorousness, which I've loathed since the 80's, is the easiest thing to deride and, honestly, it's low-hanging fruit. If he were an otherwise competent leader, I suppose it wouldn't bother me all that much. And while I'm fine with a few (very few, but still...) things he's done, I'm most troubled by the way he unwittingly plays into the hands of sinister global forces that seek to undermine the advances democratic institutions have made since WWII. Trump is more a major symptom than a cause of the increasing erosion of democratic values in the world, as populists, nationalists, foreign dictators and plain entropy take their toll. But he's an accelerant of such erosion where real statesmen would be bulwark against it.

I'm growing increasingly concerned about Trump giving his id free rein as the advisers in whom I had the most faith have left. I don't think it's a coincidence that his Ukraine misadventures kicked into high gear after the last of his generals resigned. Kelly, Mattis and McMaster (along with Tillerson and others) each did a lot to keep a fairly tight bridle on the Donald. With bigoted xenophobes like Steve Miller calling the shots, the future is worrisome. Meanwhile, Putin and Xi couldn't be happier to fill the growing retrenchment of U.S. influence.

[SeattleUte]

His indecorousness, which I've loathed since the 80's, is the easiest thing to deride and, honestly, it's low-hanging fruit. If he were an otherwise competent leader, I suppose it wouldn't bother me all that much. And while I'm fine with a few (very few, but still...) things he's done, I'm most troubled by the way he unwittingly plays into the hands of sinister global forces that seek to undermine the advances democratic institutions have made since WWII. Trump is more a major symptom than a cause of the increasing erosion of democratic values in the world, as populists, nationalists, foreign dictators and plain entropy take their toll. But he's an accelerant of such erosion where real statesmen would be bulwark against it.

I'm growing increasingly concerned about Trump giving his id free rein as the advisers in whom I had the most faith have left. I don't think it's a coincidence that his Ukraine misadventures kicked into high gear after the last of his generals resigned. Kelly, Mattis and McMaster (along with Tillerson and others) each did a lot to keep a fairly tight bridle on the Donald. With bigoted xenophobes like Steve Miller calling the shots, the future is worrisome. Meanwhile, Putin and Xi couldn't be happier to fill the growing retrenchment of U.S. influence.

How has he “played into the hands of sinister global forces that seek to undermine the advances democratic institutions have made since WWII?” Mueller found there was no collusion with Russia. Ukraine is Russia’s enemy. He has stood up to the Chinese and caused them real pain. Meanwhile, China seeks to totalitarianize Hong Kong and is persecuting even purging Muslim minorities, not to mention China’s trade chicanery. Romney was wrong. China is a bigger threat to our national security and to democratic ideals than backward Russia.

One thing maybe that he has certainly done right is push fascist Iran to the brink of collapse. His rationale for opposing immigration is the drug cartels and terrorists. Again, Democrats don’t want liberal immigration any more than Republicans. (Indeed, those with a libertarian bent like the Koch brothers (and me) seem to be the only ones who really favor it.)

As a lawyer, I actually blame Giuliani for his current impeachment problems more than Trump. Giuliani, whose job as Trump’s lawyer was to keep him out of trouble, desperate for the limelight (there’s a good NY Times article on his this week), marched Trump into this quagmire (which may ultimately ensnare the democrats who have been crying wolf from day one).

There’s no reason for Republicans especially Mormons to be in such a high dudgeon about Trump other than his indecorousness, his affairs, his vulgarity, etc.

[creekster]

His indecorousness, which I've loathed since the 80's, is the easiest thing to deride and, honestly, it's low-hanging fruit. If he were an otherwise competent leader, I suppose it wouldn't bother me all that much. And while I'm fine with a few (very few, but still...) things he's done, I'm most troubled by the way he unwittingly plays into the hands of sinister global forces that seek to undermine the advances democratic institutions have made since WWII. Trump is more a major symptom than a cause of the increasing erosion of democratic values in the world, as populists, nationalists, foreign dictators and plain entropy take their toll. But he's an accelerant of such erosion where real statesmen would be bulwark against it.

I'm growing increasingly concerned about Trump giving his id free rein as the advisers in whom I had the most faith have left. I don't think it's a coincidence that his Ukraine misadventures kicked into high gear after the last of his generals resigned. Kelly, Mattis and McMaster (along with Tillerson and others) each did a lot to keep a fairly tight bridle on the Donald. With bigoted xenophobes like Steve Miller calling the shots, the future is worrisome. Meanwhile, Putin and Xi couldn't be happier to fill the growing retrenchment of U.S. influence.

I agree that Trump is more a symptom and less a cause of the erosion of democratic values. Moreover, I think the phenomenon sometimes called Trump derangement syndrome is MORE of a danger to our system than he is. Like parents who give attention rather than ignore a spoiled, petulant child and so make the problem much worse, we have been playing into his tantrums and incivility for the last three years. The problem is that we, as an electorate, have now learned new behaviors. Everything is an EXISTENTIAL threat. Pelosi even claimed the very existence of civilization would be threatened if Trump is re-elected! Can you imagine if Trump claimed the obverse, that unless he is reelected civilization was at risk?? The idiocy of both claims seems self-evident, and yet there she was, saying just such a stupid thing 'because Trump.' Much better for both sides of the aisle if everyone except Trump had acted like adults and let him hold his breath and pound the table like a child.

And here is something I have wondered about: who are these 'real statesmen' to whom you refer? Obama, who pays off the Iranians in cash and offers the Russians more flexibility, sotto voce, once he is elected? I think perhaps the decay in our institutions has been happening at a fundamental level for a long time and the 'real statesmen' have slapped on a new coat of paint every few years and we think it looks great and so we ignore the problems hidden from view. Trump comes in and by the force of his so-unpleasant personality and purely self-interested behavior exposes all of these problems and divisions for what they are. He is merely a megaphone for the anti-democratic whispers and hisses that have arisen over the last generation or two.

Putin or Xi might be gleefully waiting to fill the void created by a diminished US presence in world affairs. But this is a separate issue and a non-trumpian problem. The fact is that we have been spending far too much in money and people in asserting our influence for a long time. We MUST retrench. The question is where and how much. Surely Trump will make these choices in a non-strategic and self-interested way, but that is a reason to vote for someone else, not a reason to impeach him.

[SeattleUte]

He's eroding our soft-power and gutting our intelligence services by virtue of being untrustworthy and burning human intel sources in places like Syria. He antagonizes our allies, threatens NATO, with, I should mention, made-up bullshit. He fellates dictators, and has freely given away valuable political capital to the DPRK with nothing to show in return. I'm not sure where you get the idea he detests war. He hasn't bombed anyone?

He's pardoned war crimanals and racists like Joe Arpiao. Stephen Miller, a despicable white supremicist reigns supreme on immigration issues. He's curtailed legal immigration, and lowered refugee caps to new lows. He actively enfranchises racists and bigots.

He also rambles incoherently at times, throws trantrums and morphs into a toddler. He canceled a trip because Denmark did not want to sell Greenland.

I hate Trump and I admit it, but my assessment is valid. You seem quite fond of the guy but won't admit. Also, you've got a low-threshold for tolerable governance.

No. What any literate person would get from my post is that I don’t respect or like Trump, but I think that Sanders, Warren, AOC are as or more dangerous.

Probably my low tolerance for acceptable governance reflects my low regard and low expectations for politicians, who are unprincipled climbers and sometimes fools almost without exception.

[creekster]

No. What any literate person would get from my post is that I don’t respect or like Trump, but I think that Sanders, Warren, AOC are as or more dangerous.

Probably my low tolerance for acceptable governance reflects my low regard and low expectations for politicians, who are unprincipled climbers and sometimes fools almost without exception.

Exactly. They are all pretty much like Trump, but most of them have to hide it. In my mind, that is the true message of the Hunter Biden questions: it's all the same.

[SeattleUte]

I agree that Trump is more a symptom and less a cause of the erosion of democratic values. Moreover, I think the phenomenon sometimes called Trump derangement syndrome is MORE of a danger to our system than he is. Like parents who give attention rather than ignore a spoiled, petulant child and so make the problem much worse, we have been playing into his tantrums and incivility for the last three years. The problem is that we, as an electorate, have now learned new behaviors. Everything is an EXISTENTIAL threat. Pelosi even claimed the very existence of civilization would be threatened if Trump is re-elected! Can you imagine if Trump claimed the obverse, that unless he is reelected civilization was at risk?? The idiocy of both claims seems self-evident, and yet there she was, saying just such a stupid thing 'because Trump.' Much better for both sides of the aisle if everyone except Trump had acted like adults and let him hold his breath and pound the table like a child.

And here is something I have wondered about: who are these 'real statesmen' to whom you refer? Obama, who pays off the Iranians in cash and offers the Russians more flexibility, sotto voce, once he is elected? I think perhaps the decay in our institutions has been happening at a fundamental level for a long time and the 'real statesmen' have slapped on a new coat of paint every few years and we think it looks great and so we ignore the problems hidden from view. Trump comes in and by the force of his so-unpleasant personality and purely self-interested behavior exposes all of these problems and divisions for what they are. He is merely a megaphone for the anti-democratic whispers and hisses that have arisen over the last generation or two.

Putin or Xi might be gleefully waiting to fill the void created by a diminished US presence in world affairs. But this is a separate issue and a non-trumpian problem. The fact is that we have been spending far too much in money and people in asserting our influence for a long time. We MUST retrench. The question is where and how much. Surely Trump will make these choices in a non-strategic and self-interested way, but that is a reason to vote for someone else, not a reason to impeach him.

PAC must think that socialism is entirely consonant with advances in democratic institutions that have been made since WWII.

[myboynoah]

Exactly. They are all pretty much like Trump, but most of them have to hide it. In my mind, that is the true message of the Hunter Biden questions: it's all the same.

Seriously? Pretty much we're all like Trump and just hiding it?

Not at all.

[creekster]

Seriously? Pretty much we're all like Trump and just hiding it?

Not at all.

In the sense that SU described it? Yes, pretty much.

[SeattleUte]

Seriously? Pretty much we're all like Trump and just hiding it?

Not at all.

I predicted the night he was elected that the democrats would be trying to impeach him from day one. I have texts to prove it, probably posts here I should be swishing. The Russia thing was never credible as some Trump haters like Toobin acknowledged early on. The current impeachment is a gift from Giuliani, but maybe an exploding one. After impeachment talk every day since election night 2016, in the House and Senate this will be 100 percent partisan except a few Democrats (at least) will vote no. Who could believe this is something other than politics unless you're drunk with the partisan kool aid.

[myboynoah]

I predicted the night he was elected that the democrats would be trying to impeach him from day one. I have texts to prove it, probably posts here I should be swishing. The Russia thing was never credible as some Trump haters like Toobin acknowledged early on. The current impeachment is a gift from Giuliani, but maybe an exploding one. After impeachment talk every day since election night 2016, in the House and Senate this will be 100 percent partisan except a few Democrats (at least) will vote no. Who could believe this is something other than politics unless you're drunk with the partisan kool aid.

Partisan? Sure. But it doesn't mean that the President is then given a pass for his misconduct.

[frank ryan]

I predicted the night he was elected that the democrats would be trying to impeach him from day one. I have texts to prove it, probably posts here I should be swishing. The Russia thing was never credible as some Trump haters like Toobin acknowledged early on. The current impeachment is a gift from Giuliani, but maybe an exploding one. After impeachment talk every day since election night 2016, in the House and Senate this will be 100 percent partisan except a few Democrats (at least) will vote no. Who could believe this is something other than politics unless you're drunk with the partisan kool aid.

It's never really been discredited. He continues to advance wittingly/unwittingly Russian interests, but carry on Seattle Huckabee Sanders.

[SeattleUte]

Partisan? Sure. But it doesn't mean that the President is then given a pass for his misconduct.

I agree, conceptually. Two things can be true at once. But I'm talking about politics and credibility with voters.

[Uncle Ted]

I predicted the night he was elected that the democrats would be trying to impeach him from day one. I have texts to prove it, probably posts here I should be swishing. The Russia thing was never credible as some Trump haters like Toobin acknowledged early on. The current impeachment is a gift from Giuliani, but maybe an exploding one. After impeachment talk every day since election night 2016, in the House and Senate this will be 100 percent partisan except a few Democrats (at least) will vote no. Who could believe this is something other than politics unless you're drunk with the partisan kool aid.

Yeah, Nadler said this pretty much on day one... actually right after Drumpf was elected:

Despite Nadler’s statesman-like tone now, he’s been an active voice in the “Resist Movement” for two years now. “We cannot wait four years to vote Mr. Trump out of office,” he posted on his website after Trump was elected in 2016. “So we must do everything we can to stop Trump and his extreme agenda now.”

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...es_139078.html

I am guessing that Jerry is a friend of Frank's. They both share a deep hatred of Drumpf. It is no wonder that Nadler jumped all over the crumb of so called "evidence" or 3rd hand hearsay. He has been waiting for this chance since Drumpf was elected.