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Thread: Impeaching Trump: Make America Sane Again

  1. #1411

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Thanks.
    It would have been one thing if he had said, "hey, I used to think differently, but this is why I changed my opinion about it." That to me would have made him sound even more credible. Instead he came away sounding a little smug and "know it all" about the way he expressed himself when he had to have known what he'd written in the past that directly contradicted himself today. His claim his views aren't partisan just isn't very believable given how he's changed based on the subject of who was under impeachment inquiry.

    But the article does point out one thing Turley said that shows he still doesn't really agree with the Republicans about:

    Turley “cut to the heart of the matter: ‘The use of military aid for a quid pro quo to investigate one’s political opponent, if proven, can be an impeachable offense.’” As Geltzer notes, the fact that Professor Turley thinks the case hasn’t yet been made is neither here nor there: when even the GOP’s expert legal witness concedes that the central charge, if proven, meets the constitutional standard, the constitutional debate is over.

  2. #1412
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    It would have been one thing if he had said, "hey, I used to think differently, but this is why I changed my opinion about it." That to me would have made him sound even more credible. Instead he came away sounding a little smug and "know it all" about the way he expressed himself when he had to have known what he'd written in the past that directly contradicted himself today. His claim his views aren't partisan just isn't very believable given how he's changed based on the subject of who was under impeachment inquiry.

    But the article does point out one thing Turley said that shows he still doesn't really agree with the Republicans about:

    Turley “cut to the heart of the matter: ‘The use of military aid for a quid pro quo to investigate one’s political opponent, if proven, can be an impeachable offense.’” As Geltzer notes, the fact that Professor Turley thinks the case hasn’t yet been made is neither here nor there: when even the GOP’s expert legal witness concedes that the central charge, if proven, meets the constitutional standard, the constitutional debate is over.
    I don't think it directly or contradicted what he had said earlier. Even if you buy into the indictment/trial dichotomy the article presents (and it is a persuasive but not a perfect analogy), there is still a good faith requirement that you have some basis for the indictment. You are not required to meet the same BoP as at trial but you still need some reasonable basis for the charge. I think his point, as I heard his testimony a few days ago, was that the potential articles of impeachment (his testimony was given before he saw what exactly was being proposed) lacked any obvious evidence of a quid pro quo apart from indirect inference and that there was simply no reason to hurry the process. It is true that Trump has refused to let his people testify but this is far from the first time a president has said FU to congressional subpoenas. Turley's point was that congress should pursue judicial relief, as congress has often done in the past. It seems to me that if it did so those witnesses would be ordered to testify. Now if Trump continued to refuse, then it is an obvious and easy call for impeachment. And if the WH witnesses do testify, it should be easier to gather substantial first hand evidence of the alleged QpQ, if it exists. And why do the democrats need to hurry? That was exactly what Nadler addressed and we discussed yesterday, when he said it was to avoid future election interference because he doesn't trust the electorate to get it right.

    Speaking of intellectual sleight of hand, the article moves back and forth pretty quickly between talking about impeachment of federal judges and presidents. I think it is a bit tricky to claim those should be treated identically. Further, the article claims that litigation over witness testimony would drag out past the 2020 election. That is very speculative and, I think, very unlikely as a host of political and legal factors would come to bear on Trump long before then should he try to keep litigating this issue that long. Either way, it is not a good excuse for congress to claim that its power has primacy and so must be obeyed unquestioningly as failing to do so is an impeachable choice. Not how it is supposed to work.

    Finally, I find it amusing that you condemn Turley for being a smug know-it-all (he was) when you have the other three law professors on the same day who were at least his equal in that department (especially the one from Stanford). One might argue they were even worse (although the uproar over the 'baron' joke was pretty dumb, IMO).

    I also am not surprised by Turley's conclusion; If there is obvious evidence that Trump insisted on the QpQ he should be impeached. The irony, of course, is that this comment assumes the conclusion of a senate trial and is exactly the sort of conflation the article was criticizing (which it sort of acknowledges).

    Trump is hugely disappointing and at times embarrassing as a president. If the first article of impeachment is proven as drafted he should be removed from office, IMO. I think the second article is silly until Congress at least seeks a judicial order to enforce the subpoenas it issued.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    The City of San Francisco makes known its views on the subject.


    CB55429A-E399-410A-8E25-5774A553826A.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    The City of San Francisco makes known its views on the subject.


    CB55429A-E399-410A-8E25-5774A553826A.jpg
    LOL. Were you down at the ferry building today? My wife and I went by there this morning and laughed at that same sign.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    LOL. Were you down at the ferry building today? My wife and I went by there this morning and laughed at that same sign.
    Yup, on our way to an afternoon soiree near the Wharf.

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    Yes Dems... never give up!

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    Yes, these polls have to be wrong... because he said so!

    Last edited by Uncle Ted; 12-18-2019 at 05:48 AM.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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    Drumpf sends Nancy a letter...

    Dear Madam Speaker:

    I write to express my strongest and most powerful protest against the partisan impeachment crusade being pursued by the Democrats in the House of Representatives. This impeachment represents an unprecedented and unconstitutional abuse of power by Democrat Lawmakers, unequaled in nearly two and a half centuries of American legislative history.

    The Articles of Impeachment introduced by the House Judiciary Committee are not recognizable under any standard of Constitutional theory, interpretation, or jurisprudence. They include no crimes, no misdemeanors, and no offenses whatsoever. You have cheapened the importance of the very ugly word, impeachment!

    By proceeding with your invalid impeachment, you are violating your oaths of office, you are breaking your allegiance to the Constitution, and you are declaring open war on American Democracy. You dare to invoke the Founding Fathers in pursuit of this election-nullification scheme—yet your spiteful actions display unfettered contempt for America’s founding and your egregious conduct threatens to destroy that which our Founders pledged their very lives to build. Even worse than offending the Founding Fathers, you are offending Americans of faith by continually saying “I pray for the President,” when you know this statement is not true, unless it is meant in a negative sense. It is a terrible thing you are doing, but you will have to live with it, not I!
    [...]
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings...presentatives/

    When I hear Pelosi say that she always prays for the President this image comes to mind:

    IMG_2668.JPG
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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    If Trump is re-elected and the Dems keep a majority in the house, is it possible that Trump becomes the first president to be impeached twice? That would be funny.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    If Trump is re-elected and the Dems keep a majority in the house, is it possible that Trump becomes the first president to be impeached twice? That would be funny.
    Probably not. Which is a compelling reason NOT to impeach him now. Keep the powder dry.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  12. #1422

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    OK, what is the over/under on when this happens? I say 12 months into his term. Max.
    Should have taken the over.

  13. #1423
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    It's official. Trump has been impeached. I would be lying if I said I didn't say I found the process the Democrats implemented to go through with this a bit disturbing. I think it set a horrific precedent that will haunt our country for decades to come. I can't help but think that this will cause our already broken political system to devolve into further rank partisanship, obstructionism, and utter incompetence. It will take the American people holding their elected officials responsible at the ballot box, and especially in primaries/caucuses, to dig us out of this mess and I, frankly, don't have much hope that it will happen.

    Setting aside the Ukraine stuff, which has been debated to death here and everywhere, I found the "Obstruction of Congress" article to be the most troubling. I strongly believe that the executive branch has way more power than the founders ever intended and that Congress should take back a lot of that power, much of which it voluntarily gave away, for itself. Impeaching a President for refusing to give in to every partisan congressional demand, however, is not an effective way to do that. The Democrats know this. It's likely that every President in our history has refused at least some Congressional demands for information or other executive action. Did Trump likely overstep by making a blanket order that all executive branch members refuse to comply with Congressional subpoenas in connection with the impeachment? Likely yes. The remedy is for Congress to go to the courts to enforce their subpoenas. That is how things have been done for centuries. Yet the Democrats didn't do that. Why? Because it would hurt them in the next election. Instead of asking for a court order compelling executive branch witnesses to appear before Congress, which they likely would have gotten (at least in part), they decided to skip the constitutionally ordained process for enforcing their subpoena power and impeach the President over refusing to give in to their partisan demands, submitting him to the Senate for removal from office. That is unprecedented and, in my opinion, quite disturbing. And I find their rationale--to get this over before the primaries--almost as insidious as Trump's paltry attempt to influence the election through the announcement of a bogus Ukrainian investigation into Biden.

    Had they got their court orders and the President directed his executive branch officials to defy the courts, I would wholeheartedly embrace impeachment and would hope for the Senate to remove Trump from office. Instead, they decided to short-circuit the courts and came up with some unprecedented "obstruction of congress" charge simply because the President refused to do what they demanded that he do. If Congress and the Executive are supposed to be co-equal branches, how could that ever be an impeachable offense? Congress should not be beholden to the President, as they have allowed themselves to become in many circumstances, but it is also true that the President should not be beholden to Congress ... especially when Congressional demands are supported only by partisans.

    Trump is a horrible human being and an awful President that never should have been elected. I think he has likely committed impeachable acts that, if fully exposed, would support his removal from office. But the process the Democrats engaged in was a clown show. It was driven by a desire to influence the election against Trump, without causing the type of disruption to their own primary that a full and thorough investigation would have required. The influence this bogus impeachment will have on the election will be far more invasive than Ukraine announcing a bogus investigation into Biden ever would have had been.

    I support impeaching Trump, but not in this way. I'm surprised at how many people, on both sides, are just accepting this as the new way of doing politics. Don't even get me started on the sycophantic media, who are almost universally praising the Democrats who instigated this as noble heroes committed to upholding the Constitution to their own political detriment while condemning anyone who dared to question its validity as dishonest hacks. The media is as much to blame, if not more, for the current dismal state of our political system as anyone.

    P.S. Sorry for the diatribe. Just venting.
    Last edited by UVACoug; 12-18-2019 at 06:45 PM.

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    Good vent.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVAllen View Post
    Should have taken the over.
    Yeah, I was off on the timing, but I am still going to claim a SWISH!
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  16. #1426
    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Trump is going to win in 2020 no doubt.

    Good economy, stock market going great, low unemployment, and now this impeachment that is definitely perceived as unfair and unjust by the vast majority of Republicans and half of independent voters.

    Trump voters are going to be very motivated. We don’t know who the Democratic candidate will be but know for sure that he/she will be totally uninspiring if not downright frightening.

  17. #1427
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    Quote Originally Posted by UVACoug View Post
    It's official. Trump has been impeached. I would be lying if I said I didn't say I found the process the Democrats implemented to go through with this a bit disturbing. I think it set a horrific precedent that will haunt our country for decades to come. I can't help but think that this will cause our already broken political system to devolve into further rank partisanship, obstructionism, and utter incompetence. It will take the American people holding their elected officials responsible at the ballot box, and especially in primaries/caucuses, to dig us out of this mess and I, frankly, don't have much hope that it will happen.

    Setting aside the Ukraine stuff, which has been debated to death here and everywhere, I found the "Obstruction of Congress" article to be the most troubling. I strongly believe that the executive branch has way more power than the founders ever intended and that Congress should take back a lot of that power, much of which it voluntarily gave away, for itself. Impeaching a President for refusing to give in to every partisan congressional demand, however, is not an effective way to do that. The Democrats know this. It's likely that every President in our history has refused at least some Congressional demands for information or other executive action. Did Trump likely overstep by making a blanket order that all executive branch members refuse to comply with Congressional subpoenas in connection with the impeachment? Likely yes. The remedy is for Congress to go to the courts to enforce their subpoenas. That is how things have been done for centuries. Yet the Democrats didn't do that. Why? Because it would hurt them in the next election. Instead of asking for a court order compelling executive branch witnesses to appear before Congress, which they likely would have gotten (at least in part), they decided to skip the constitutionally ordained process for enforcing their subpoena power and impeach the President over refusing to give in to their partisan demands, submitting him to the Senate for removal from office. That is unprecedented and, in my opinion, quite disturbing. And I find their rationale--to get this over before the primaries--almost as insidious as Trump's paltry attempt to influence the election through the announcement of a bogus Ukrainian investigation into Biden.

    Had they got their court orders and the President directed his executive branch officials to defy the courts, I would wholeheartedly embrace impeachment and would hope for the Senate to remove Trump from office. Instead, they decided to short-circuit the courts and came up with some unprecedented "obstruction of congress" charge simply because the President refused to do what they demanded that he do. If Congress and the Executive are supposed to be co-equal branches, how could that ever be an impeachable offense? Congress should not be beholden to the President, as they have allowed themselves to become in many circumstances, but it is also true that the President should not be beholden to Congress ... especially when Congressional demands are supported only by partisans.

    Trump is a horrible human being and an awful President that never should have been elected. I think he has likely committed impeachable acts that, if fully exposed, would support his removal from office. But the process the Democrats engaged in was a clown show. It was driven by a desire to influence the election against Trump, without causing the type of disruption to their own primary that a full and thorough investigation would have required. The influence this bogus impeachment will have on the election will be far more invasive than Ukraine announcing a bogus investigation into Biden ever would have had been.

    I support impeaching Trump, but not in this way. I'm surprised at how many people, on both sides, are just accepting this as the new way of doing politics. Don't even get me started on the sycophantic media, who are almost universally praising the Democrats who instigated this as noble heroes committed to upholding the Constitution to their own political detriment while condemning anyone who dared to question its validity as dishonest hacks. The media is as much to blame, if not more, for the current dismal state of our political system as anyone.

    P.S. Sorry for the diatribe. Just venting.
    Agree completely. Well-said.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  18. #1428
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    Trump is going to win in 2020 no doubt.

    Good economy, stock market going great, low unemployment, and now this impeachment that is definitely perceived as unfair and unjust by the vast majority of Republicans and half of independent voters.

    Trump voters are going to be very motivated. We don’t know who the Democratic candidate will be but know for sure that he/she will be totally uninspiring if not downright frightening.
    Yeah, I wonder.

    Trump mocks Rep. Debbie Dingell and suggests her dead husband could be in hell

    Trump lamented that Democrats who he claims to have been kind to in the past voted to impeach him, including Michigan’s Rep. Debbie Dingell.

    “Debbie Dingell, that’s a real beauty,” he started, before going off about how she called him to ask for special funeral arrangements for the late congressman John Dingell.

    “She calls me up. ‘It’s the nicest thing that’s ever happened. Thank you so much. John, would be so thrilled,’ he’s looking down... ,” Trump said, and then added, “Maybe he’s looking up, I don’t know.”

    Shortly after, Dingell reacted to Trump’s comment, writing on Twitter: “Mr. President, let’s set politics aside. My husband earned all his accolades after a lifetime of service. I’m preparing for the first holiday season without the man I love. You brought me down in a way you can never imagine and your hurtful words just made my healing much harder.”
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

  20. #1430

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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    Trump is going to win in 2020 no doubt.

    Good economy, stock market going great, low unemployment, and now this impeachment that is definitely perceived as unfair and unjust by the vast majority of Republicans and half of independent voters.

    Trump voters are going to be very motivated. We don’t know who the Democratic candidate will be but know for sure that he/she will be totally uninspiring if not downright frightening.
    Oh boy. He might win, but it will be close and contentious if he does. He's not a lock at this point. A recent Fox poll indicated a majority supported impeachment. So most people don't view as a victim.

    And if you don't find Trump frightening at this point, you're part of the 5th Ave. Brigade.

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    LOL... The dumb Dems were dressed for their own funeral:

    Nancy Pelosi’s stomach-turning impeachment charade damages America : Goodwin




    [...]
    Watching the so-called debate Wednesday, I was struck by how the impeachers, desperate to inflate their base partisan passions into something noble, have cheapened our nation’s history and language.

    They resembled Grade B actors performing for the cameras, their rehearsed references to oaths, prayers, the Founding Fathers, the rule of law, checks and balances and the Constitution itself all sounding contrived. Rather than reflecting actual gravitas, the words were trotted out to create the appearance of it.

    That was consistent with Pelosi’s latest demand that her members stay “solemn” in public, so as not to give the impression that they were gloating and joyful. In other words, hide how you really feel so we can fool more people into joining us.

    Only the damage to America is real.
    https://nypost.com/2019/12/18/nancy-...erica-goodwin/


    And just when I thought the Dems are as dumb as they possibly could get they prove me wrong:

    Pelosi threatens to delay Senate impeachment trial
    Some legal scholars have suggested she could consider refusing to transmit articles of impeachment to the Senate.

    Speaker Nancy Pelosi refused to commit Wednesday to delivering articles of impeachment to the Senate, citing concerns about an unfair trial on removing President Donald Trump from office.
    [...]
    https://www.politico.com/news/2019/1...y-hoyer-087319


    “Fair trial” applies to the accused, not the accuser... You dummies.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  22. #1432

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    Quote Originally Posted by UVACoug View Post
    It's official. Trump has been impeached. I would be lying if I said I didn't say I found the process the Democrats implemented to go through with this a bit disturbing. I think it set a horrific precedent that will haunt our country for decades to come. I can't help but think that this will cause our already broken political system to devolve into further rank partisanship, obstructionism, and utter incompetence. It will take the American people holding their elected officials responsible at the ballot box, and especially in primaries/caucuses, to dig us out of this mess and I, frankly, don't have much hope that it will happen.

    Setting aside the Ukraine stuff, which has been debated to death here and everywhere, I found the "Obstruction of Congress" article to be the most troubling. I strongly believe that the executive branch has way more power than the founders ever intended and that Congress should take back a lot of that power, much of which it voluntarily gave away, for itself. Impeaching a President for refusing to give in to every partisan congressional demand, however, is not an effective way to do that. The Democrats know this. It's likely that every President in our history has refused at least some Congressional demands for information or other executive action. Did Trump likely overstep by making a blanket order that all executive branch members refuse to comply with Congressional subpoenas in connection with the impeachment? Likely yes. The remedy is for Congress to go to the courts to enforce their subpoenas. That is how things have been done for centuries. Yet the Democrats didn't do that. Why? Because it would hurt them in the next election. Instead of asking for a court order compelling executive branch witnesses to appear before Congress, which they likely would have gotten (at least in part), they decided to skip the constitutionally ordained process for enforcing their subpoena power and impeach the President over refusing to give in to their partisan demands, submitting him to the Senate for removal from office. That is unprecedented and, in my opinion, quite disturbing. And I find their rationale--to get this over before the primaries--almost as insidious as Trump's paltry attempt to influence the election through the announcement of a bogus Ukrainian investigation into Biden.

    Had they got their court orders and the President directed his executive branch officials to defy the courts, I would wholeheartedly embrace impeachment and would hope for the Senate to remove Trump from office. Instead, they decided to short-circuit the courts and came up with some unprecedented "obstruction of congress" charge simply because the President refused to do what they demanded that he do. If Congress and the Executive are supposed to be co-equal branches, how could that ever be an impeachable offense? Congress should not be beholden to the President, as they have allowed themselves to become in many circumstances, but it is also true that the President should not be beholden to Congress ... especially when Congressional demands are supported only by partisans.

    Trump is a horrible human being and an awful President that never should have been elected. I think he has likely committed impeachable acts that, if fully exposed, would support his removal from office. But the process the Democrats engaged in was a clown show. It was driven by a desire to influence the election against Trump, without causing the type of disruption to their own primary that a full and thorough investigation would have required. The influence this bogus impeachment will have on the election will be far more invasive than Ukraine announcing a bogus investigation into Biden ever would have had been.

    I support impeaching Trump, but not in this way. I'm surprised at how many people, on both sides, are just accepting this as the new way of doing politics. Don't even get me started on the sycophantic media, who are almost universally praising the Democrats who instigated this as noble heroes committed to upholding the Constitution to their own political detriment while condemning anyone who dared to question its validity as dishonest hacks. The media is as much to blame, if not more, for the current dismal state of our political system as anyone.

    P.S. Sorry for the diatribe. Just venting.

    They've been trying to enforce their subpoena power - to no avail. And, the Trump administration has pretty brazen about not-cooperating. The AG has been found in contempt of congress ifs.

    There are only partisans in congress, if you haven't noticed. You had individuals on committees like Devin Nunes compromising investigations on behalf of his king.
    I'm assuming you'll complain about the partisanship of the Republican senators who have already stated they won't as impartial jurors but will actively try to kill to the trial for Trump's behalf.

    Really, though, you're downplaying the seriousness of what Trump has done, and will continue to, especially if unchecked. He really is that bad.
    Last edited by frank ryan; 12-18-2019 at 08:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Oh boy. He might win, but it will be close and contentious if he does. He's not a lock at this point. A recent Fox poll indicated a majority supported impeachment. So most people don't view as a victim.

    And if you don't find Trump frightening at this point, you're part of the 5th Ave. Brigade.
    I think this one was more recent...

    Trump approval rises, support for impeachment drops in new poll

    A new poll released hours before the Democratic-controlled House of Representatives was poised to impeach President Trump indicates that by a slight 51-45 percent majority, Americans oppose removing the president from office.
    [...]
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...peachment-poll

    Oh, BTW... Even WaPo thinks Drumpf is probably going to win. Sorry Frank.

    Spoiler alert: Trump is probably going to win in 2020

    Spoiler alert: The House is going to impeach President Trump, and the Senate will acquit him.


    But you probably already knew that.

    [...]
    It’s a virtual certainty that Trump will emerge relatively unscathed and, credibly, unfazed. Not only are his supporters more stalwart than ever but, ahem, as I predicted a couple of columns ago, his base is expanding. Since the impeachment proceedings began, 600,000 new donors have contributed to the Republican National Committee, according to Axios. Last week alone, just as the House Judiciary Committee adopted two articles of impeachment, the Trump campaign and RNC together took in more than $10 million in small-dollar donations.

    The Democratic National Committee made no such commensurate gains, though some Democrats running against designated Republican villains, such as Rep. Devin Nunes (Calif.), did see an uptick in fundraising.


    Suffice to say, the Democrats have probably damaged themselves more than they have Trump, whose approval ratings have remained relatively steady between a low of 35 percent in 2017 and a high of 46 percent in April 2019 — no matter what he does to whom, according to Gallup. The latest RealClearPolitics poll average has him at 44 percent approval, which is slightly higher than in early October.
    [...]
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...249_story.html
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
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    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  24. #1434
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    The GOP'ers gave some good speeches on the floor today... For example:



    I haven't found any good ones from the Dems yet.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  25. #1435
    Senior Member UVACoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    They've been trying to enforce their subpoena power - to no avail. And, the Trump administration has pretty brazen about not-cooperating. The AG has been found in contempt of congress ifs.

    There are only partisans in congress, if you haven't noticed. You had individuals on committees like Devin Nunes compromising investigations on behalf of his king.
    I'm assuming you'll complain about the partisanship of the Republican senators who have already stated they won't as impartial jurors but will actively try to kill to the trial for Trump's behalf.

    Really, though, you're downplaying the seriousness of what Trump has done, and will continue to, especially if unchecked. He really is that bad.
    Trying? Really? There's a court hearing set for January 3 to evaluate Don McGahn's subpoena:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-court-hearing

    Why couldn't they have waited for that? Oh yeah ... the election (like I said).

    They've readily admitted that they didn't subpoena John Bolton, despite him asking them to, because they knew they'd have to go to court to enforce it.

    There's at least one other subpoena case that they decided to give up on rather than go through the normal appeal process that happens in every single case. Enforcement of that subpoena was stayed by the Supreme Court until the appeal could be resolved. And given that you will of course argue that the Supreme Court is just protecting Trump, I will note that there wasn't a single dissenting opinion issued with the stay order.

    This isn't trying. It's deciding that it is more important to "get impeachment done" so Trump will be tainted going into the election, without disrupting the Democratic primary. Everyone acknowledges this is what they are doing. How is that any less insidious than having a foreign country that a majority of Americans known nothing about announce a bogus investigation that everyone will forget about in 24 hours? Is this really what impeachment was intended for?

    And what happened to Pelosi's statement here:

    “Impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don’t think we should go down that path, because it divides the country,” she said. “He’s just not worth it.”

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1QS2JG
    With Nixon, there was bipartisan support for investigation and, ultimately, bipartisan support for impeachment (and likely for removal, if it had gotten there). Johnson, Clinton, and now Trump were all impeached by partisan Congresses. Johnson and Clinton's impeachments are now looked at as largely unjustified--and they were both at least nominally based on allegations of actual crimes. What makes you think that history won't treat Trump's the same way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    The GOP'ers gave some good speeches on the floor today... For example:

    I haven't found any good ones from the Dems yet.
    Oh wait, here is a good one from the Dems. "We should all come together not as Republicans or Democrats, but as Americans..."


    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by UVACoug View Post

    And what happened to Pelosi's statement here:

    “Impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don’t think we should go down that path, because it divides the country,” she said. “He’s just not worth it.”


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1QS2JG
    With Nixon, there was bipartisan support for investigation and, ultimately, bipartisan support for impeachment (and likely for removal, if it had gotten there). Johnson, Clinton, and now Trump were all impeached by partisan Congresses. Johnson and Clinton's impeachments are now looked at as largely unjustified--and they were both at least nominally based on allegations of actual crimes. What makes you think that history won't treat Trump's the same way.
    These Pelosi quotes should make for some good political ads for Drumpf...

    IMG_2679.jpg

    Wait, there was bipartisan support... to not to impeach.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  28. #1438
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UVACoug View Post
    It's official. Trump has been impeached. I would be lying if I said I didn't say I found the process the Democrats implemented to go through with this a bit disturbing. I think it set a horrific precedent that will haunt our country for decades to come. I can't help but think that this will cause our already broken political system to devolve into further rank partisanship, obstructionism, and utter incompetence. It will take the American people holding their elected officials responsible at the ballot box, and especially in primaries/caucuses, to dig us out of this mess and I, frankly, don't have much hope that it will happen.

    Setting aside the Ukraine stuff, which has been debated to death here and everywhere, I found the "Obstruction of Congress" article to be the most troubling. I strongly believe that the executive branch has way more power than the founders ever intended and that Congress should take back a lot of that power, much of which it voluntarily gave away, for itself. Impeaching a President for refusing to give in to every partisan congressional demand, however, is not an effective way to do that. The Democrats know this. It's likely that every President in our history has refused at least some Congressional demands for information or other executive action. Did Trump likely overstep by making a blanket order that all executive branch members refuse to comply with Congressional subpoenas in connection with the impeachment? Likely yes. The remedy is for Congress to go to the courts to enforce their subpoenas. That is how things have been done for centuries. Yet the Democrats didn't do that. Why? Because it would hurt them in the next election. Instead of asking for a court order compelling executive branch witnesses to appear before Congress, which they likely would have gotten (at least in part), they decided to skip the constitutionally ordained process for enforcing their subpoena power and impeach the President over refusing to give in to their partisan demands, submitting him to the Senate for removal from office. That is unprecedented and, in my opinion, quite disturbing. And I find their rationale--to get this over before the primaries--almost as insidious as Trump's paltry attempt to influence the election through the announcement of a bogus Ukrainian investigation into Biden.

    Had they got their court orders and the President directed his executive branch officials to defy the courts, I would wholeheartedly embrace impeachment and would hope for the Senate to remove Trump from office. Instead, they decided to short-circuit the courts and came up with some unprecedented "obstruction of congress" charge simply because the President refused to do what they demanded that he do. If Congress and the Executive are supposed to be co-equal branches, how could that ever be an impeachable offense? Congress should not be beholden to the President, as they have allowed themselves to become in many circumstances, but it is also true that the President should not be beholden to Congress ... especially when Congressional demands are supported only by partisans.

    Trump is a horrible human being and an awful President that never should have been elected. I think he has likely committed impeachable acts that, if fully exposed, would support his removal from office. But the process the Democrats engaged in was a clown show. It was driven by a desire to influence the election against Trump, without causing the type of disruption to their own primary that a full and thorough investigation would have required. The influence this bogus impeachment will have on the election will be far more invasive than Ukraine announcing a bogus investigation into Biden ever would have had been.

    I support impeaching Trump, but not in this way. I'm surprised at how many people, on both sides, are just accepting this as the new way of doing politics. Don't even get me started on the sycophantic media, who are almost universally praising the Democrats who instigated this as noble heroes committed to upholding the Constitution to their own political detriment while condemning anyone who dared to question its validity as dishonest hacks. The media is as much to blame, if not more, for the current dismal state of our political system as anyone.

    P.S. Sorry for the diatribe. Just venting.
    I haven’t followed the impeachment stuff as much as I’d like due to work constraints but also because of impeachment call fatigue. But I’m glad you wrote this out because it is spot on.

    I think Trump at least deserves to be censured, if not impeached. But the process to get to this point seems to be dishonest. Some of me wants to vote for Trump (I won’t unless Bernie or Warren as the opponent) just because of the dishonesty of the whole thing and I’m sure there are others that would agree.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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  30. #1440
    Semper infra dignitatem PaloAltoCougar's Avatar
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    Putin says Trump was impeached for "made-up reasons." Having grown up in a dangerous cold war world, I think it's comforting that these two have each other's back when the other is accused of wrongdoing.

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