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Thread: Impeaching Trump: Make America Sane Again

  1. #331
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    I think Pelosi's strategy makes a lot of sense.

    And it doesn't change the fact that Trump is garbage.
    Are you looking for the Scumbag Trump thread?

    The fact of the matter is that Pelosi is abdicating her duty. For shame! I wonder what Putin has on her.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

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  2. #332
    Explosivo Commando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    An impeachment hearing would require proof of collusion (e.g. treason)
    Or at minimum lying about a bj. Gee, you think we can get something that dastardly on Donald Dump?
    "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

  3. #333
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    This New Yorker opinion piece on history of presidential obstruction is a good read:

    Obstruction of justice has been a basis for articles of impeachment against two Presidents in the past fifty years: Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton. The House voted to impeach Clinton for obstruction of justice and perjury, in 1998, in connection with his efforts to cover up his affair with the White House intern Monica Lewinsky. Four years earlier, the independent counsel Kenneth Starr had been appointed to lead the Whitewater investigation, which involved the Clintons’ alleged misconduct in real-estate investments. As that investigation was petering out, without establishing their criminal conduct, Starr shifted course and produced a report on the President’s lies regarding his relationship with Lewinsky and his efforts to obstruct Starr’s investigation. The Starr report ultimately concluded that there was “substantial and credible information that President Clinton committed acts that may constitute grounds for an impeachment.” The House followed suit, voting for impeachment, though the Senate failed to convict and remove him.

    Mueller could have been as prescriptive as Starr in his conclusions. The evidence in his report certainly rises to substantial and credible information that Trump obstructed justice. So why didn’t Mueller state that there may be a basis for impeachment? He may share the widespread belief that Starr overstepped his authority. He also had to be mindful of the special-counsel regulations, which were written as a rejection of the broad (and now expired) independent-counsel law that allowed Starr to be so “independent” as to run amok. Though Starr explicitly recommended and outlined grounds for impeachment, the special-counsel regulations now in effect indicate that Mueller’s job is solely to “provide the Attorney General with a confidential report explaining the prosecution or declination decisions”—not to make any recommendations to Congress based on his findings.

    Furthermore, recall that Democrats overwhelmingly considered the impeachment of Clinton to be unjustified, even outrageous. That was not because they were unconvinced by the evidence showing that Clinton repeatedly lied under oath and obstructed justice, including allegedly encouraging Lewinsky to give false testimony. Rather, it was because, as Chuck Schumer, then a House Representative, said, Clinton’s actions “were wrong and possibly illegal but did not warrant impeachment.” Senator Joe Biden said that “it is our constitutional duty to give the President the benefit of the doubt on the facts,” and that “the President’s actions do not rise to the level required by the Constitution for the removal of a sitting President.” Biden warned against the argument that “the President is a disgrace to the office, I honor and revere the office of the Presidency, so there must be some way to get this man out of that office. Therefore, his actions must rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors.” He asked his fellow-senators to ask themselves, “Can you legitimately conclude that you would vote to remove a sitting President if he were a person towards whom you felt oppositely than you do toward Bill Clinton?”

    The presumed answer, of course, was no. But why? Obstruction of justice, like perjury and contempt, is known as a “process crime”—an offense against the integrity of the administration of justice. People may obstruct justice by hiding evidence, intimidating witnesses, or misleading law enforcement, in order to impede investigation of a crime as serious as murder, as minor as marijuana possession, or even no crime at all. Prosecutions of process crimes are commonplace and important for maintaining general confidence in our justice system. But whether we think a particular punishment is fair tends to track with our views of the underlying crime. Often, we may feel discomfort about the legitimacy of charging obstruction where it seems “pretextual”—that is, when someone is targeted for a process crime because prosecutors found insufficient evidence of the substantive crime that they originally suspected. This was part of the reason why many liberals expressed outrage about the conclusion of the Starr investigation. After all, the Whitewater investigation had turned out to be a bust, and Clinton’s affair with an intern, though embarrassing to him and scandalous to the public, was not a crime.

    The conversation about impeaching Trump similarly centers on obstruction of justice. The special counsel’s investigation, of course, began as an investigation into whether Russia conspired with the Trump campaign in its election-interference efforts. But, on that question, Mueller clearly stated that “the evidence was not sufficient to charge that any member of the Trump Campaign conspired with representatives of the Russian government to interfere in the 2016 election.” Were Mueller convinced that the President committed the underlying substantive crime, he might not have been so reticent in his judgment of the process one, obstruction.

    [...]

    This leaves us with the genuinely difficult question of whether Trump’s obstruction of justice is good grounds for his impeachment. We might recall that the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon, in 1974, were also for process offenses—obstruction of justice, abuse of power, and contempt of Congress—arising from his coverup of the Watergate burglary and his resistance to Congress’s investigation of it. He resigned in the midst of the impeachment process, rather than wait for what seemed like certain removal from office. In Nixon’s case, there was no doubt that a primary crime, the Watergate burglary, had occurred, though it was uncertain whether he had actually ordered it. But the corruption inherent in Nixon’s obstructive acts—such as having his associates pay hush money to co-conspirators—helped make obstruction of justice feel urgently primary, not secondary, and morally dwarfed the burglary that started the scandal.

    Could something similar be said of Trump? Compared with Nixon, Trump’s corruption looks like that of a bumbling amateur. The Mueller report includes accounts of his multiple, unsuccessful attempts to obstruct justice. [...] Trump’s incompetence and incoherence may have made actual coördination with Russia hopeless. As his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, said two years ago, “They thought we colluded, but we couldn’t even collude with our local offices.” The same incompetence also raises some doubts about whether a criminal prosecutor could establish the “corrupt intent” required to prove obstruction of justice beyond a reasonable doubt. An impeachment, however, is not bound by criminal standards. But because Trump does not appear to have been competent enough to carry out a conspiracy with a foreign power determined to help him, and because his obstruction efforts were so sloppy and ineffective, it is uncertain whether Congress could be convinced, for impeachment purposes, that he committed obstruction of justice.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

    You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

  4. #334
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    Wait... the Dems may actually have something here:

    n2p3938tvrw21.jpg
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
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  5. #335

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    This New Yorker opinion piece on history of presidential obstruction is a good read:
    The last paragraph is a perfect encapsulation of this whole situation. Also, LOL at Hillary for finding a way to lose to this guy.

  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by wapiti View Post
    The last paragraph is a perfect encapsulation of this whole situation. Also, LOL at Hillary for finding a way to lose to this guy.
    The election was 'stolen' from Hillary! Maybe she wasn't wearing her 'big boy pants' and let this happen.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  7. #337
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    No biggie
    The payment wasn’t made to spare Melania Trump or the Trump children from the embarrassment of learning about the affair. It was made to influence the election — that is, it was a campaign contribution. And it wasn’t reported. And it exceeded the statutory cap. And it was made in concert with the campaign.

    https://hotair.com/archives/2018/12/...ence-election/
    Quote Originally Posted by wapiti View Post
    This is an unprecedented stretch of campaign finance law. I can see how they are connecting the dots but there is no way this logic holds up in court.
    wapiti with the swish.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

    You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

  8. #338

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    wapiti with the swish.
    Well, Cohen is already in jail for this.

  9. #339
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    Well, Cohen is already in jail for this.
    He's in jail because he agreed to it. Maybe he made a bad deal, but he was also charged with perjury and other crimes. If they can't get you for the underlying crime, they'll always try perjury. Don't lie
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

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  10. #340

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    He's in jail because he agreed to it. Maybe he made a bad deal, but he was also charged with perjury and other crimes. If they can't get you for the underlying crime, they'll always try perjury. Don't lie
    Michael Cohen Pleads Guilty In Manhattan Federal Court To Eight Counts, Including Criminal Tax Evasion And Campaign Finance Violations

    Plea Follows Filing of Eight Count Criminal Information Alleging Concealment of More Than $4 Million in Unreported Income, $280,000 in Unlawful Campaign Contributions

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr...g-criminal-tax

  11. #341
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Michael Cohen Pleads Guilty In Manhattan Federal Court To Eight Counts, Including Criminal Tax Evasion And Campaign Finance Violations

    Plea Follows Filing of Eight Count Criminal Information Alleging Concealment of More Than $4 Million in Unreported Income, $280,000 in Unlawful Campaign Contributions

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr...g-criminal-tax
    One of the ways that Trump has caused people on the left wing to go crazy is that they're so full of righteous indignation they just say stuff they should know isn't true. All this mendacity. I expect more of BlueK. In that atrocious press conference that just played into Trump's hands Ilhan Omar said that Trump colluded with the Russians.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift

  12. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    One of the ways that Trump has caused people on the left wing to go crazy is that they're so full of righteous indignation they just say stuff they should know isn't true. All this mendacity. I expect more of BlueK. In that atrocious press conference that just played into Trump's hands Ilhan Omar said that Trump colluded with the Russians.
    I just stated a fact about one of Cohen's convictions having been on a campaign finance charge related to the payoff of Stormy Daniels. You can argue he made a bad deal if you want.

  13. #343
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    Why is it the Dems can't get this done? They own the House. I want Pence for my president!

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  14. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    I want Pence for my president!
    [
    Yeah, sure you do. We all believe that.

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    Yeah, sure you do. We all believe that.
    No, really. He seems like a nice guy.


    Sent from my iPhone and not some cheap Chinese crap running Android spyware
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  16. #346
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    It is kind of funny, and reassuring, that the impeachment vote fell the way it did. Pelosi was right.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  17. #347

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Or at minimum lying about a bj. Gee, you think we can get something that dastardly on Donald Dump?
    People keep throwing the collusion word around. The crime they were looking at was conspiracy. They found some evidence but it wasn’t enough to merit criminal charges. It’s in the Mueller report.

  18. #348

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    It is kind of funny, and reassuring, that the impeachment vote fell the way it did. Pelosi was right.
    The only thing included in that article was that Trump should be impeached for being a racist. I think most dems want any future articles of impeachment to have more than that after basing it on hearings -- more like Nixon and less like Clinton. I suspect many didn't appreciate the tactic of going around the party leadership either.

    What is interesting is that everyone remembers that Clinton's approval rating was pretty high at the time his impeachment hearings started and went even higher afterwards.

    But what everyone forgets is that the Republicans won the next three elections, and that's the only thing that really mattered in the end. In the longer term it did not hurt the GOP to go after Clinton.
    Last edited by BlueK; 07-18-2019 at 01:40 PM.

  19. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    People keep throwing the collusion word around. The crime they were looking at was conspiracy. They found some evidence but it wasn’t enough to merit criminal charges. It’s in the Mueller report.
    You need to call Al Green and tell him that they need to vote a resolution of impeachment again!
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  20. #350
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    People keep throwing the collusion word around. The crime they were looking at was conspiracy.
    Guys, gals... let's not be careless with words.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

    You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

  21. #351
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    But who fact checks the fact checkers?
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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