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Thread: Impeaching Trump: Make America Sane Again

  1. #961
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    I know we shouldnt have to police the world. But we made promises to the kurds, and they faced danger on our behalf. It was fricken 1035 soldiers, we have 55K in Japan and 35K in Germany. Why couldn't we have reduced Japan and Germany by 500 each?
    Let's bring them home, too.
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    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Not to offend anyone on this board, but we are all about as equally qualified as Whoopi and the other Ladies on that show to discuss foreign policy and troop withdrawals.
    I guess I will cancel my national TV appearances.
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  3. #963

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Let's bring them home, too.
    Let’s not. It’s been important to our security. It’s not just about protecting them. It might sound to bring back all our overseas forces but that is foolish, isolationist thinking. It’s not an accident that there has been significant peace since WW2 and we have those troops deployed.

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    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    I know we shouldnt have to police the world. But we made promises to the kurds, and they faced danger on our behalf. It was fricken 1035 soldiers, we have 55K in Japan and 35K in Germany. Why couldn't we have reduced Japan and Germany by 500 each?
    Yep. And a very efficient, effective way to maintain a presence in the region and stave off the type of thing that is happening right now.
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  5. #965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    I know we shouldnt have to police the world. But we made promises to the kurds, and they faced danger on our behalf. It was fricken 1035 soldiers, we have 55K in Japan and 35K in Germany. Why couldn't we have reduced Japan and Germany by 500 each?
    What? Why do we have 55K in Japan and 25K in Germany? How about we reduce them down to 50 each? Apparently that was more than enough to keep all of Turkey from invading Syria.
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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    This really isn't about isolationism as a foreign policy, nor is it about general retrenchment. It is about a specific example of an incredibly poor tactical choice that has zero apparent benefit to the United States and has a very predictable and bloody result for the Kurds, a reshuffling of alliances that undermines our strategic position in the theater, an expansion of Russian influence, the undermining of Israeli security, and results in greatly diminished USA credibility on the ground where real alliances are born and built, for years, both in the middle east and everywhere.

    There have been so many apparent poor choices during Trump's administration. But they can usually be explained or have some ambiguous purpose, etc. Not this one. Zero ambiguity. Zero benefit. Zero strategic or tactical value. It is the fruit of either unimaginable corruption or complete incompetence. I tend to think it is the latter, but it is so incomprehensibly foolish that I would not be shocked if it were the former.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    What? Why do we have 55K in Japan and 25K in Germany? How about we reduce them down to 50 each? Apparently that was more than enough to keep all of Turkey from invading Syria.
    Haha. Wasn't your dad in the military?
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    This really isn't about isolationism as a foreign policy, nor is it about general retrenchment. It is about a specific example of an incredibly poor tactical choice that has zero apparent benefit to the United States and has a very predictable and bloody result for the Kurds, a reshuffling of alliances that undermines our strategic position in the theater, an expansion of Russian influence, the undermining of Israeli security, and results in greatly diminished USA credibility on the ground where real alliances are born and built, for years, both in the middle east and everywhere.

    There have been so many apparent poor choices during Trump's administration. But they can usually be explained or have some ambiguous purpose, etc. Not this one. Zero ambiguity. Zero benefit. Zero strategic or tactical value. It is the fruit of either unimaginable corruption or complete incompetence. I tend to think it is the latter, but it is so incomprehensibly foolish that I would not be shocked if it were the former.
    I thought Rand Paul said the Turks were coming no matter what to flight with this tribe of Kurds because they claimed their were "terrorists"? (Apparently using the keyword "terrorist" is the way around of getting approval first. Ask Obama. That is how he got us into Syria in the first place without congress' approval.) So if they Turks were coming no matter why it seems that we had two choices: (1) Move our boys out of harms way. or (2) Carpet bomb our NATO "ally".
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    Strikes and Gutters chrisrenrut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    There have been so many apparent poor choices during Trump's administration. But they can usually be explained or have some ambiguous purpose, etc. Not this one. Zero ambiguity. Zero benefit. Zero strategic or tactical value. It is the fruit of either unimaginable corruption or complete incompetence. I tend to think it is the latter, but it is so incomprehensibly foolish that I would not be shocked if it were the former.
    The timing of the decision, at the height of impeachment talks for his Ukraine call, tells me there was a purpose. It seems like anytime he is under pressure, he does something out of left field that changes the dialogue and distracts from the issue applying said pressure.

  10. #970

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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    Yep. And a very efficient, effective way to maintain a presence in the region and stave off the type of thing that is happening right now.
    Trump cares more about what Erdogan and Putin want. He is subservient to Putin and that is probably why we he trying to conceal all those details of his interactions with him, and why congress has not been able to speak the translator who was in Helsinki.

    Trump cares more about what authoritarian/nationalist/fascist leaders think than our own allies. Truly shameful to support that guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    I thought Rand Paul said the Turks were coming no matter what to flight with this tribe of Kurds because they claimed their were "terrorists"? (Apparently using the keyword "terrorist" is the way around of getting approval first. Ask Obama. That is how he got us into Syria in the first place without congress' approval.) So if they Turks were coming no matter why it seems that we had two choices: (1) Move our boys out of harms way. or (2) Carpet bomb our NATO "ally".
    Well, if Rand Paul said it ....

    Maybe they would have. But when? And under what circumstances? And what sort of prep could we have had or could the Kurds have had? Could we have acted to preserve the alliance and avoid consolidation of the Kurdish forces under the PKK banner? Could we have avoided Russian influence increasing and undermined credibility? All of these things? Yes, it was all possible. But not in the way it was handled. Have you read reports of the phone cal between Trump and Erdogan on the Sunday morning before he announced this policy via twitter? Shameful.

    Your fascination with how we got into Syria in the first place and your false dichotomy of leaving or carpet bombing are a bit silly. They are both irrelevant to the analysis of Trump's decision.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    The timing of the decision, at the height of impeachment talks for his Ukraine call, tells me there was a purpose. It seems like anytime he is under pressure, he does something out of left field that changes the dialogue and distracts from the issue applying said pressure.
    Perhaps so, but if that was his purpose then even his lauded instincts for survival are dubious, because this swayed a lot of people to support impeachment, rather then lead them away from it.

    Also, reports of the phone call suggest he was just wildly unprepared and was rolled by Erdogan.
    Last edited by creekster; 10-14-2019 at 04:45 PM.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  13. #973
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Well, if Rand Paul said it ....

    Maybe they would have. But when? And under what circumstances? And what sort of prep could we have had or could the Kurds have had? Could we have acted to preserve the alliance and avoid consolidation of the Kurdish forces under the PKK banner? Could we have avoided Russian influence increasing and undermined credibility? All of these things? Yes, it was all possible. But not in the way it was handled. Have you read reports of the phone cal between Trump and Erdogan on the Sunday morning before he announced this policy via twitter? Shameful.

    Your fascination with how we got into Syria in the first place and your false dichotomy of leaving or carpet bombing are a bit silly. They are both irrelevant to the analysis of Trump's decision.
    See http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...=1#post1431891

    Paul sits on the foreign relations committee so I assume he knows what he is talking about. He said, "Turkey was coming in one way or another and 50 solders would just be in the way, being a tripwire to a much worse outcome."
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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    See http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...=1#post1431891

    Paul sits on the foreign relations committee so I assume he knows what he is talking about. He said, "Turkey was coming in one way or another and 50 solders would just be in the way, being a tripwire to a much worse outcome."
    You're smarter than me so I know you heard the nuance in what he said as well as what he did not say. If you assume that "10s of thousands" of Turks are swarming the 50 soldiers, no matter what, then, yes, you move them. But that is almost certainly a faulty premise. Erdogan called Trump to inform him of Turkey's propsed plan for a terrorist free zone. Rather than demur or object or inform him that it was unacceptable or tell him it had to be modified or that he needed more time to assess, etc., Trump simply said "fine" and then tweeted that he was moving the advisors who were in Turkey's way. Rand says they were coming? Of course they were, but the rest of his assumptions are speculative and assume conditions that were only present BECAUSE of Trump's decision.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  15. #975
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    OMG... That looks bad:

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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  16. #976
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    It looks as bad as this fire fight that broke out at the Knob Creek Gun Range, located in Bullitt County, Kentucky:

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  17. #977

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    Here's the thing: there are non-crazy libertarian-lite reasons* to, in an orderly fashion, completely get out of Syria. But Trump is so effing unintelligent and inarticulate that he is making what could be (in the future) seen as a smart decision a terrible mistake currently. He has alienated allies current and future, all because he is too stupid to articulate a cogent reason why the troop removal is important now. Good luck to whoever the next US president is when they need to gather an international coalition.

    *And not from the fake libertarian Rand Paul, Ted.

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    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  19. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Here's the thing: there are non-crazy libertarian-lite reasons* to, in an orderly fashion, completely get out of Syria. But Trump is so effing unintelligent and inarticulate that he is making what could be (in the future) seen as a smart decision a terrible mistake currently. He has alienated allies current and future, all because he is too stupid to articulate a cogent reason why the troop removal is important now. Good luck to whoever the next US president is when they need to gather an international coalition.

    *And not from the fake libertarian Rand Paul, Ted.
    Harry Reid disagrees with you: Trump is a 'very, very smart man'
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    I know we shouldnt have to police the world. But we made promises to the kurds, and they faced danger on our behalf. It was fricken 1035 soldiers, we have 55K in Japan and 35K in Germany. Why couldn't we have reduced Japan and Germany by 500 each?
    We cannot bring troops home because that would not be in {insert any country not named America here}'s best interest... instead it would be playing right into the hands of {insert one of Russia, Iran, or North Korea}.

    .
    .
    .

    It is long past time to empty Japan and Germany of US military forces. Both countries are now economic giants and have been for several decades.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    The timing of the decision, at the height of impeachment talks for his Ukraine call, tells me there was a purpose. It seems like anytime he is under pressure, he does something out of left field that changes the dialogue and distracts from the issue applying said pressure.
    Trump discarded those Kurds like an "Old Shoe" amirite?
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    You're smarter than me so I know you heard the nuance in what he said as well as what he did not say. If you assume that "10s of thousands" of Turks are swarming the 50 soldiers, no matter what, then, yes, you move them. But that is almost certainly a faulty premise. Erdogan called Trump to inform him of Turkey's propsed plan for a terrorist free zone. Rather than demur or object or inform him that it was unacceptable or tell him it had to be modified or that he needed more time to assess, etc., Trump simply said "fine" and then tweeted that he was moving the advisors who were in Turkey's way. Rand says they were coming? Of course they were, but the rest of his assumptions are speculative and assume conditions that were only present BECAUSE of Trump's decision.
    Remember when he deployed troops to Tucson (a good 70 miles from the border) a couple years ago and had them there over Thanksgiving because of the "border crisis?" It was absolutely no coincidence at all that he did it right before midterm elections. :| I think some of us are very unsurprised by this useful moron.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    .

    It is long past time to empty Japan and Germany of US military forces. Both countries are now economic giants and have been for several decades.
    You think we have troops stationed there for Japan and Germany's benefit?
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    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    You think we have troops stationed there for Japan and Germany's benefit?
    Walter appears to be a very linear, zero-sum, either-or type of thinker.
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    Walter appears to be a very linear, zero-sum, either-or type of thinker.
    Surprising that a guy with a computer programming background would resort to binary thinking.
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    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    It is long past time to empty Japan and Germany of US military forces. Both countries are now economic giants and have been for several decades.
    And take all those jobs away from hardworking American families??
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    And take all those jobs away from hardworking American families??
    No, Drumpf would reassign them to protect the U.S. southern boarder from invasion.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    You think we have troops stationed there for Japan and Germany's benefit?
    No, I don't. These aren't the ruined nations of 1945 any longer. The Germans don't want us there, the Japanese don't want us in Okinawa. Bring the troops home.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

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    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    No, I don't. These aren't the ruined nations of 1945 any longer. The Germans don't want us there, the Japanese don't want us in Okinawa. Bring the troops home.
    Haha, we aren't staying there because we thought they wanted us there. And we aren't there because we are rebuilding their nations.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    Haha, we aren't staying there because we thought they wanted us there. And we aren't there because we are rebuilding their nations.
    Which proves my point. These aren't our client states and the Cold War is over.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

    You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

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