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  • Originally posted by The_Tick View Post
    I didn't say that none of this happened. I'm not taking that position at all.

    He said it didn't happen. She says that it did. I don't feel like I am taking a position either way. If it came off that way, that was not my intention.

    Let the law go through its process. Let the legal action go through its process. Let the Church go through their process.

    I feel bad for an old man and his family that are guilty until proven innocent. I feel bad that the woman is having her life drug through the press as well. And you are correct, I don't like that folks are popping up out of the woodwork to take this opportunity to drag the Church over the coals yet again.
    I only skimmed the transcript, so correct me in the likely case that I am wrong, but I don't believe the bolded part is true. He agreed with some of what she said, and said, basically, "I don't remember" to other parts, but I don't believe he really denied anything.

    Comment


    • I want to expound a little on my earlier comment.

      The ex-mormon and anti-mormon factions can't separate Church bureaucracy and the Gospel (what I view as the Church) because it helps make their case against the divinity of the Church. "How could the Church leaders allow such a horrible man to be in such a position if they are truly inspired by God?"

      Then there is the group within the Church that cannot separate the two either. They believe that all decisions/callings in the Church, while not perfect, are inspired, making the bureaucracy inspired as well. They see situations, such as this one, as a direct sign of Satan's opposition to the Church. So they defend the Church at every turn, regardless of the situation. Even against compelling evidence.

      If Asay was indeed made aware of the allegations against Bishop, then the Church bureaucracy does deserve criticism for allowing Bishop to remain in his calling...not for placing him in the position initially (this assumes no one was aware of his issues beforehand). I agree with MartyFunk that they handled it similarly to how many large organizations and religions addressed the issue of sexual predators/sexual assault in the past. So my hope is that the bureaucracy will learn from this situation, and have a better approach in the future.

      Similar to temple interviews, when a member is called to a position, the bishop,et al does so with faith that the person has disclosed any egregious sins to the appropriate authority. Leadership is not immune to the deceptions and failings of human nature. To believe otherwise, places them on an untouchable pedestal that is not fair to them.
      "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

      "They talk about the economy this year. Hey, my hairline is in recession, my waistline is in inflation. Altogether, I'm in a depression."

      "I like to bike. I could beat Lance Armstrong, only because he couldn't pass me if he was behind me."

      -Rick Majerus

      Comment


      • Originally posted by The_Tick View Post
        I didn't say that none of this happened. I'm not taking that position at all.

        He said it didn't happen. She says that it did. I don't feel like I am taking a position either way. If it came off that way, that was not my intention.

        Let the law go through its process. Let the legal action go through its process. Let the Church go through their process.

        I feel bad for an old man and his family that are guilty until proven innocent. I feel bad that the woman is having her life drug through the press as well. And you are correct, I don't like that folks are popping up out of the woodwork to take this opportunity to drag the Church over the coals yet again.
        Based on your previous comments, I don't think that you feel bad for her at all. Your words suggest a high level of disdain.
        "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

        "They talk about the economy this year. Hey, my hairline is in recession, my waistline is in inflation. Altogether, I'm in a depression."

        "I like to bike. I could beat Lance Armstrong, only because he couldn't pass me if he was behind me."

        -Rick Majerus

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Clark Addison View Post
          I only skimmed the transcript, so correct me in the likely case that I am wrong, but I don't believe the bolded part is true. He agreed with some of what she said, and said, basically, "I don't remember" to other parts, but I don't believe he really denied anything.
          He denied the rape according to what someone said from the police report. That was what I was referencing.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
            Based on your previous comments, I don't think that you feel bad for her at all. Your words suggest a high level of disdain.
            That was not my intention. I feel bad for everyone involved.

            Comment


            • I’ve seen a few references to Bishop’s age and him being an old man in this thread and other places. To any of those citing that as a mitigating factor now, do you consider the leadership of the church in a similar way?
              Get confident, stupid
              -landpoke

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
                I want to expound a little on my earlier comment.

                The ex-mormon and anti-mormon factions can't separate Church bureaucracy and the Gospel (what I view as the Church) because it helps make their case against the divinity of the Church. "How could the Church leaders allow such a horrible man to be in such a position if they are truly inspired by God?"

                Then there is the group within the Church that cannot separate the two either. They believe that all decisions/callings in the Church, while not perfect, are inspired, making the bureaucracy inspired as well. They see situations, such as this one, as a direct sign of Satan's opposition to the Church. So they defend the Church at every turn, regardless of the situation. Even against compelling evidence.

                If Asay was indeed made aware of the allegations against Bishop, then the Church bureaucracy does deserve criticism for allowing Bishop to remain in his calling...not for placing him in the position initially (this assumes no one was aware of his issues beforehand). I agree with MartyFunk that they handled it similarly to how many large organizations and religions addressed the issue of sexual predators/sexual assault in the past. So my hope is that the bureaucracy will learn from this situation, and have a better approach in the future.

                Similar to temple interviews, when a member is called to a position, the bishop,et al does so with faith that the person has disclosed any egregious sins to the appropriate authority. Leadership is not immune to the deceptions and failings of human nature. To believe otherwise, places them on an untouchable pedestal that is not fair to them.
                Well said.
                "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                Comment


                • Originally posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
                  I’ve seen a few references to Bishop’s age and him being an old man in this thread and other places. To any of those citing that as a mitigating factor now, do you consider the leadership of the church in a similar way?
                  I think I've referenced that, but I don't see that as a critical factor, but could be a factor in terms of memory. Obviously not all 85-year-olds are the same. I also think the age issue is amplified by that fact that I assume he is in some kind of facility, and in poor health.

                  As for Church leadership, we get to see these guys twice a year, and as they age I do take it into consideration. Frankly, I wonder how active some are involved in deciision-making.
                  Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

                  For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

                  Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by myboynoah View Post
                    I think I've referenced that, but I don't see that as a critical factor, but could be a factor in terms of memory. Obviously not all 85-year-olds are the same. I also think the age issue is amplified by that fact that I assume he is in some kind of facility, and in poor health.

                    As for Church leadership, we get to see these guys twice a year, and as they age I do take it into consideration. Frankly, I wonder how active some are involved in deciision-making.
                    Yeah, we all know that the "deep church" actually runs the church.
                    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
                    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
                    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
                    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by myboynoah View Post
                      As for Church leadership, we get to see these guys twice a year, and as they age I do take it into consideration. Frankly, I wonder how active some are involved in deciision-making.
                      I wonder that too, but I know there is a segment of the church that considers that heresy.
                      Get confident, stupid
                      -landpoke

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
                        I’ve seen a few references to Bishop’s age and him being an old man in this thread and other places. To any of those citing that as a mitigating factor now, do you consider the leadership of the church in a similar way?
                        As someone who works with a lot of seniors, retirees, and the elderly, I can confirm that you can go batshit crazy / develop infirmities at any age.

                        Comment


                        • My dad passed away at 80 and didn’t know who any of his kids were and probably didn’t even know who he really was, thanks to Alzheimer’s. There was a time in his mid 70s where he seemed pretty much like himself, but definitely wasn’t. I’m sure he could have been convinced he had done anything the day before, let alone years before.

                          With all that said, there is no evidence Bishop has Alzheimer’s, which is very different than normal aging.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by LVAllen View Post
                            As someone who works with a lot of seniors, retirees, and the elderly, I can confirm that you can go batshit crazy / develop infirmities at any age.
                            So, when a church leader doubles down on what is considered an out of date stance or a direction that doesn’t seem pertinent to following Christ and filling our lives with charity they have just gone crazy/developed infirmities?

                            I also work, almost exclusively with retirees, so I have at least a rudimentary understanding of old people.
                            Get confident, stupid
                            -landpoke

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Art Vandelay View Post
                              My dad passed away at 80 and didn’t know who any of his kids were and probably didn’t even know who he really was, thanks to Alzheimer’s. There was a time in his mid 70s where he seemed pretty much like himself, but definitely wasn’t. I’m sure he could have been convinced he had done anything the day before, let alone years before.

                              With all that said, there is no evidence Bishop has Alzheimer’s, which is very different than normal aging.
                              Yes. He may be old and have memory issues, but that transcript is not from someone who has dementia.
                              "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                              "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                              - SeattleUte

                              Comment


                              • Provo Daily Herald report:

                                https://www.heraldextra.com/news/loc...7ca824e34.html

                                I don't think there is anything new there. But this line struck me:

                                MormonLeaks.io noted that while Bishop never affirmatively acknowledges any specific actions, he reportedly admits in the recording he molested at least one woman and had been inappropriate with many other women. At one point, he claims if the full extent of his sins were to be revealed, he would be excommunicated and the church would be embarrassed.
                                Interesting, given our conversation here. Bishop himself seems to think that excommunication is warranted.
                                "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                                "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                                "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                                Comment

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