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Thread: Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

  1. #31
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    You asked which first vision. I answered. I'm just saying--he tried to become a Methodist after Jesus told him not to. That's pretty bad. I would do whatever Jesus told me to do.
    You brought it up first. It's not my fault that you are so pissed that GAs are paid a very normal salary for clergy (many are saying they are vastly underpaid, read the PFS article) that you have to deflect to another argument.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    You brought it up first. It's not my fault that you are so pissed that GAs are paid a very normal salary for clergy (many are saying they are vastly underpaid, read the PFS article) that you have to deflect to another argument.
    I'm not pissed. I feel bad for them.

    They should earn more.

    But at least in their waning years they receive 24-hour in-home nursing care, which is worth many hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. Yes, this is true. Yes, I know this from good sources.

  3. #33
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    I'm not pissed. I feel bad for them.

    They should earn more.

    But at least in their waning years they receive 24-hour in-home nursing care, which is worth many hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. Yes, this is true. Yes, I know this from good sources.
    Documentary evidence? Or anecdotal evidence from sources you won't name?
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    Documentary evidence? Or anecdotal evidence from sources you won't name?
    It doesn't matter, because didn't you hear? Joseph Smith was HUMAN!!!!!!!

  5. #35
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    I'm not pissed. I feel bad for them.

    They should earn more.

    But at least in their waning years they receive 24-hour in-home nursing care, which is worth many hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. Yes, this is true. Yes, I know this from good sources.
    Lol.

    You should take a break and fight again another day.
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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    Documentary evidence? Or anecdotal evidence from sources you won't name?
    Let me put it this way.

    My evidence is much better than any evidence for the fundamental truth claims of Mormonism.

  7. #37
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    Let me put it this way.

    My evidence is much better than any evidence for the fundamental truth claims of Mormonism.
    Evasive. I thought you were here to discuss things on all fours?
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

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  8. #38
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    I'm not pissed. I feel bad for them.
    Yes you are. You can't handle it that not only is it less than $600k, it's wildly less than that amount. It's okay, you'll forget about it soon enough.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  9. #39
    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    Let me put it this way.

    My evidence is much better than any evidence for the fundamental truth claims of Mormonism.
    Whether by actual evidence or by the mouth of Byron Marchant, it is the same.

  10. #40

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    I'm so confused.

    I'm surrounded by people who believe in a book that says pre-Columbian America contained:

    1) Horses
    2) Elephants
    3) Swords
    4) Chariots
    5) Barley
    6) Honeybees
    7) Goats
    8) Swine
    9) Cows
    10) Silk
    11) Windows
    12) Compasses
    13) Cimiters

    And a book that contains innumerable linguistic anachronisms

    All originating from visions purportedly received by a 14-year-old boy, who later tried to become a Methodist despite the fact that Jesus Christ himself told him at age 14 not to join any other church (ballsy of him).

    And this man later grew up to become an adult who said that he didn't really want to have multiple wives but an Angel with a Flaming Sword made him do it.

    And yet YOU are asking ME to show you evidence.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Katy Lied's Avatar
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    I kinda like that Joseph Smith tried to become a Methodist. It makes me feel closer to my Methodist buddies. I celebrate the partial truths of Methodism.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    I kinda like that Joseph Smith tried to become a Methodist. It makes me feel closer to my Methodist buddies. I celebrate the partial truths of Methodism.
    I also like Methodism.

    But would you attempt to become a methodist after Jesus Christ himself came down and told you not to? Gutsy!

    Although he apparently didn't go through with it, so I'll give him that. Maybe he had wondered at times whether it was really Jesus that appeared to him.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Katy Lied's Avatar
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    You wave this methodism around as if it is a smoking gun. JS did a lot of things in his youth that he was told not to do. Flirting with methodism seem quite honorable to me, compared to say, digging for treasure. Doesn't bother me one bit. Does it bother anyone else?

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    You wave this methodism around as if it is a smoking gun. JS did a lot of things in his youth that he was told not to do. Flirting with methodism seem quite honorable to me, compared to say, digging for treasure. Doesn't bother me one bit. Does it bother anyone else?
    I'm not bothered.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    You wave this methodism around as if it is a smoking gun. JS did a lot of things in his youth that he was told not to do. Flirting with methodism seem quite honorable to me, compared to say, digging for treasure. Doesn't bother me one bit. Does it bother anyone else?
    Doesn't particularly bother me. You might as well ask why JS was praying to know his standing before God.

  16. #46

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    Here is a question--completely aside from the whole becoming a methodist after Jesus told him not to question.

    How bad of a thing would Joseph Smith have to do for him to be discredited, in your mind?

    For example, if marrying 14-year-olds wasn't enough, what would be enough for him to be discredited as a prophet? Serious question. Not meant to be inflammatory. I am just under the impression that the man could do no wrong in the average Mormon's eyes.

    For example, if he had murdered someone, would that have made him less legitimate as a prophet?

  17. #47

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    I suppose that depends on what standard by you judge him. There's the Elisha standard, in which murder of children via bear was acceptable. As far as I know, no one has connected JS with the infamous Nauvoo Bear attacks.

  18. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVAllen View Post
    I suppose that depends on what standard by you judge him. There's the Elisha standard, in which murder of children via bear was acceptable. As far as I know, no one has connected JS with the infamous Nauvoo Bear attacks.
    I did not know about this Elisha standard. Please tell me more.

  19. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    I did not know about this Elisha standard. Please tell me more.
    I suspect that means you have a full head of hair. 2 Kings 2:23-24.

  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVAllen View Post
    I suspect that means you have a full head of hair. 2 Kings 2:23-24.
    Let me see if I understand what's going on here.

    Is it your view that religion just one big joke but you're sort of like pretending it isn't a joke even though deep down you feel like it is a joke?

    Because this whole "murder-by-bear" discussion gives me the impression that you're basically an atheist.

  21. #51
    Senior Member Katy Lied's Avatar
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    Plus, the children of Nauvoo had no reason to call JS baldy baldy.

    I think once upon a time, polygamy was seen as a sexual crime, which creeped people out. But now it is completely accepted by people all over the world. Doesn't Obama have polygamous relatives? So, JS's actions of long ago are now being reevaluated in a much more tolerant light.

  22. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    So, JS's actions of long ago are now being reevaluated in a much more tolerant light.
    If you say so.

    Jeffs.jpg

  23. #53
    Senior Member Katy Lied's Avatar
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    Tsk tsk, you always go to your WASP roots first.

    At first, Azeez wrestled with jealousy toward her co-wife and pined for her husband on the nights and weekends he stayed with his second wife, who lived half an hour away. But eventually, a peacefulness settled in her heart and a friendship with her co-wife blossomed: "I am in polygyny because I want to be," she wrote on her blog, Polygynous Blessings, whose initial entries are collected in a self-published book of the same title. (Polygyny is the more precise term for the type of polygamy in which a man marries more than one wife.) Azeez's blog is just one of several in which American Muslims write thoughtful, sometimes wry, but usually positive commentary about living polygamously; other notables include Thoughts of a First Wife and Big Faith.

  24. #54
    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    I'm so confused.

    I'm surrounded by people who believe in a book that says pre-Columbian America contained:

    1) Horses
    2) Elephants
    3) Swords
    4) Chariots
    5) Barley
    6) Honeybees
    7) Goats
    8) Swine
    9) Cows
    10) Silk
    11) Windows
    12) A Compasses
    13) Cimiters

    And a book that contains innumerable linguistic anachronisms

    All originating from visions purportedly received by a 14-year-old boy, who later tried to become a Methodist despite the fact that Jesus Christ himself told him at age 14 not to join any other church (ballsy of him).

    And this man later grew up to become an adult who said that he didn't really want to have multiple wives but an Angel with a Flaming Sword made him do it.

    And yet YOU are asking ME to show you evidence.
    FIFY!

    Also, I thought we were talking about GA compensation. I guess your point is the church makes fantastical truth claims that are outrageous from a logical perspective, therefore you don't have to provide evidence for your claims about GA compensation. If that is indeed your point, then it is an odd one. But no more odd than your list above amiright?

  25. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    Here is a question--completely aside from the whole becoming a methodist after Jesus told him not to question.

    How bad of a thing would Joseph Smith have to do for him to be discredited, in your mind?

    For example, if marrying 14-year-olds wasn't enough, what would be enough for him to be discredited as a prophet? Serious question. Not meant to be inflammatory. I am just under the impression that the man could do no wrong in the average Mormon's eyes.

    For example, if he had murdered someone, would that have made him less legitimate as a prophet?
    Did he become a Methodist or just try to become one? And how hard can it be to become Methodist? Like, how hard did he try?
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  26. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    FIFY!

    Also, I thought we were talking about GA compensation. I guess your point is the church makes fantastical truth claims that are outrageous from a logical perspective, therefore you don't have to provide evidence for your claims about GA compensation. If that is indeed your point, then it is an odd one. But no more odd than your list above amiright?
    I guess you're right. Only one compass.

    I'm not going to disclose my source about the 24-hour in-home nursing care (registered nurses), which costs several hundred thousand dollars per year per ailing apostle.

    But I think they deserve it, given the fact that they never got a chance to enjoy a decent retirement. I just wish there would be more transparency.

  27. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Student View Post
    Did he become a Methodist or just try to become one? And how hard can it be to become Methodist? Like, how hard did he try?
    He just dabbled. He dabbled in a lot of things. It's really not that big of a deal. Sorry I brought it up.

  28. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    I'm so confused.

    I'm surrounded by people who believe in a book that says pre-Columbian America contained:

    1) Horses
    2) Elephants
    3) Swords
    4) Chariots
    5) Barley
    6) Honeybees
    7) Goats
    8) Swine
    9) Cows
    10) Silk
    11) Windows
    12) Compasses
    13) Cimiters

    And a book that contains innumerable linguistic anachronisms

    All originating from visions purportedly received by a 14-year-old boy, who later tried to become a Methodist despite the fact that Jesus Christ himself told him at age 14 not to join any other church (ballsy of him).

    And this man later grew up to become an adult who said that he didn't really want to have multiple wives but an Angel with a Flaming Sword made him do it.

    And yet YOU are asking ME to show you evidence.
    Not really mounting a defence per se, and in the spirit of your evidence ...

    1) Horses - When is a horse a horse, or not a horse? Only when it is the type of horse you consider a horse? There were horses in ancient America. Animals go extinct, sometimes quickly. Big animals like the Eastern Elk or California Golden Bear.
    2) Elephants - Are you saying there were no elephants, or elephant like creatures in the Americas? See horses above.
    3) Swords - is an obsidian sword not a sword? The Incas had bronze weapons--is a bronze sword not a sword?
    4) Chariots - When is a chariot a chariot; when it only looks and works like a chariot as depicted in the movie Ben Hur?
    5) Barley - Barley has been discovered to have existed and domesticated in ancient America. Check your sources. Science marches on and discovers new things everyday.
    6) Honeybees - Which of the 20,000 species of bee are we talking about? Granted only a few—per modern understanding—make honey. But there are honey bees found in the fossil record of north and south america. Again, science marches on.
    7) Goats - See horses and elephants above
    8) Swine - ...
    9) Cows - ...
    10) Silk - Again, when is silk as we know it silk? You mean there are no materials similar to silk? Better check that. Finely woven fur is similar to and can be confuse with silk. As can some finely woven cottons.
    11) Windows - there was glass making in ancient Mesopotamia and glass blowing practices in ancient Egypt.
    12) Compasses - the Olmec's purportedly used compases—look it up. There are academic papers that discuss the potential reality.
    13) Cimiters - do you mean Scimitars? See swords above.
    Last edited by tooblue; 01-09-2017 at 08:31 PM.

  29. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Not really mounting a defence per se, and in the spirit of your evidence ...

    1) Horses - When is a horse a horse, or not a horse? Only when it is the type of horse you consider a horse? There were horses in ancient America. Animals go extinct, sometimes quickly. Big animals like the Eastern Elk or California Golden Bear.
    2) Elephants - Are you saying there were no elephants, or elephant like creatures in the Americas? See horses above.
    3) Swords - is an obsidian sword not a sword? The Incas had bronze weapons--is a bronze sword not a sword?
    4) Chariots - When is a chariot a chariot; when it only looks and works like a chariot as depicted in the movie Ben Hur?
    5) Barley - Barley has been discovered to have existed and domesticated in ancient America. Check your sources. Science marches on and discovers new things everyday.
    6) Honeybees - Which of the 20,000 species of bee are we talking about? Granted only a few—per modern understanding—make honey. But there are honey bees found in the fossil record of north and south america. Again, science marches on.
    7) Goats - See horses and elephants above
    8) Swine - ...
    9) Cows - ...
    10) Silk - Again, when is silk as we know it silk? You mean there are no materials similar to silk? Better check that. Finely woven fur is similar to and can be confuse with silk. As can some finely woven cottons.
    11) Windows - there was glass making in ancient Mesopotamia and glass blowing practices in ancient Egypt.
    12) Compasses - the Olmec's purportedly used compases—look it up. There are academic papers that discuss the reality.
    13) Cimiters - do you mean Scimitars? See swords above.
    Well there you have it.

    Tooblue unraveling mysteries and being the champion of "science"

  30. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    Well there you have it.

    Tooblue unraveling mysteries and being the champion of "science"
    following your lead dude ... it can all be referenced. Tell you what, I'll provide the legitimate references when you provide yours.

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