Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[falafel]

What I mean is I don't think what Bishop was doing is the same thing as preaching false doctrines. Seems obvious to me, but maybe I'm the only one that sees it that way.

[SeattleUte]

Dude, you should see what has been going on in Hollywood.

Precisely. Like I said, all these revered and all-powerful male clerics (in our secular society, what are powerful entertainment industry personalities if not this) in a rigidly hierarchical organization (what is are entertainment organizations if not this; since religions are failing to do it in a relevant way, popular culture is telling us what to believe) charged with in private interrogating and probing women and girls (and men and boys) of all ages about their intimate sexual lives (including masturbation).

[creekster]

Is anyone surprised that this type of thing doesn’t happen or get exposed more often? All these revered and all-powerful male clerics in a rigidly hierarchical organization charged with in private interrogating and probing women and girls (and men and boys) of all ages about their intimate sexual lives (including masturbation). Seems like a setting ripe for grooming. This setting has occurred many millions of times, and continues to occur daily, over and over again. There must be something about the institution that suppresses in some way (including choices on the part of the victimized) disclosure or self-advocacy on the part of the victims.

Doesn't this sort of prove the opposite fo your intended point? Maybe we should be surprised if we are cynical or not surprised if we are not. Maybe it turns out that the vast majority of the lay LDS clergy really are good people trying to do good work. Your argument here, that the fact that we don't see them is not because they aren't happening but because the institution both abuses and prevents discovery, is simple speculation. Cant find proof of your conspiracy theory? Of course not, because they don't want you to know!

[Green Monstah]

I disagree that Bishop was leading people to apostasy, although I understand your point.

Regardless, I'm not advocating some kind of rankng system, and I don't think a ranking is necessary if you are excommunicating some and not others.

More like raping them to apostasy.

[falafel]

More like raping them to apostasy.

Good one.

[Green Monstah]

Is anyone surprised that this type of thing doesn’t happen or get exposed more often? All these revered and all-powerful male clerics in a rigidly hierarchical organization charged with in private interrogating and probing women and girls (and men and boys) of all ages about their intimate sexual lives (including masturbation). Seems like a setting ripe for grooming. This setting has occurred many millions of times, and continues to occur daily, over and over again. There must be something about the institution that suppresses in some way (including choices on the part of the victimized) disclosure or self-advocacy on the part of the victims.

One of my biggest struggles with the Church is how often this happens. I won't share the details, but you guys would be shocked if I told you how many friends and family I have who were sexually abused by Mormons (and I'm talking real-life friends, not internet people).

[Green Monstah]

Good one.

Not a joke, asshole.

[creekster]

What I mean is I don't think what Bishop was doing is the same thing as preaching false doctrines. Seems obvious to me, but maybe I'm the only one that sees it that way.

I understand your point and largely agree with it. While he was a private hypocrite (and all of us are to some extent) he was not publicly opposing Church policy or doctrine.

[jay santos]

One of my biggest struggles with the Church is how often this happens. I won't share the details, but you guys would be shocked if I told you how many friends and family I have who were sexually abused by Mormons (and I'm talking real-life friends, not internet people).

Most of us are Mormon. And so if we would be shocked at how often it's happened among your friends and family, wouldn't that imply that your friends and family are an anomaly.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Precisely. Like I said, all these revered and all-powerful male clerics (in our secular society, what are powerful entertainment industry personalities if not this) in a rigidly hierarchical organization (what is are entertainment organizations if not this) charged with in private interrogating and probing women and girls (and men and boys) of all ages about their intimate sexual lives (including masturbation).

As usual, you carry a huge load of biases and foregone conclusions to the debate.

I spend a lot of my time as an ecclesiastical leader teaching young women to be assertive and to protect themselves against predators and build confidence. And counseling young men to respect and honor boundaries. I have never once done anything inappropriate in my position. The vast majority of these "revered and powerful clerics" are an overwhelming positive and stabilizing influence on young men and women, your deep cynicism notwithstanding.

[SeattleUte]

Doesn't this sort of prove the opposite fo your intended point? Maybe we should be surprised if we are cynical or not surprised if we are not. Maybe it turns out that the vast majority of the lay LDS clergy really are good people trying to do good work. Your argument here, that the fact that we don't see them is not because they aren't happening but because the institution both abuses and prevents discovery, is simple speculation. Cant find proof of your conspiracy theory? Of course not, because they don't want you to know!

I think my explanation is more plausible. Occam’s razor!

[cowboy]

I think Santos is on to something and I very much like the line he is drawing between apostasy/heresy and sin. I think it would be a great way to approach it. But, the fact is, this is not how the church approaches it now. If this guy has not been disciplined previously, and in light of what are apparent admissions to egregious misconduct as the MTC president and elsewhere, I can't imagine how he is not excommunicated.

I suppose there might be some mitigation involved based on how long ago the offenses too place, his repentant attitude and possibly his lack of misconduct since the offenses, but even allowing for that, under the current approach, I just can't imagine how this does not warrant excommunication.

The entire episode is very, very sad. I hope the victim can find peace in her mind and heart.

Nice to have you back. I don't see a rational argument for doing anything churc but excommunicating Bishop. Legally, I don't think anything should be done because it's not going to give the victim(s) anything but vengeance, which I don't really think helps them heal, and I doubt he is a threat to society at this point so it's not like he needs to be incarcerated for public safety.

I'm disappointed that this all had to be made public, but if it was necessary to wake the church up and reconsider their procedures, perhaps it will end up having some positive outcome. Obviously, the victims are the primary concern here, and everything needs to be done to make this right and help them heal. I do feel a great deal of sympathy for his family as well. It would be a horrible shock to find out a family member you love and have fond memories with is guilty of such heinous misdeeds. They don't deserve that heartbreak, and they certainly don't deserve the scrutiny they will face as this plays out in public. This is why I wish the situation weren't being played out in the court of public opinion.

For me, this situation reinforces the notion that people are not all good or all bad. People can do both horrific and wonderful deeds in the same lifetime, and the idea that a person is good or bad is too simplistic. People are complicated, and even admirable people do bad things. Obviously, some otherwise exceptional people can be guilty of something so awful, as in this case, that none of the good things they've done in life overrides the handful of truly evil acts they committed. The older I get, the more convinced I am that the judgement is going to be full of a lot of big surprises.

[creekster]

I think my explanation is more plausible. Occam’s razor!

No, it's not.

Occam's Razor is in favor of it not happening. Given the millions of potential instances, as you describe it, and given the relative dearth of such claims, is the simplest explanation that they aren't happening or that they are actually very numerous but they are all suppressed in various ways over decades due to institutional pressure? Occam votes with me.

Second, give the very strident and active community looking for just such examples of embarrassments, does it seem more likely they cant find them because they aren't happening or because they simply aren't looking hard enough to find the oppressed and dig past the conspiracies?

I have no doubt this stuff happens to mormons, just as it happens everywhere. But your cynical speculations are not supported by evidence or by clear thinking.

[SeattleUte]

Ceekster/JL, why do you think these accusations occur years and sometimes decades after the alleged misconduct occurs? It’s because of what I said.

(Swish placeholder here.)

[jay santos]

Ceekster/JL, why do you think these accusations occur years and sometimes decades after the alleged misconduct occurs? It’s because of what I said.

(Swish placeholder here.)

I agree. At least once in the next 20 years, there will be another accusation of sexual misconduct of a Mormon leader. Hold this for a swish for me.