Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[falafel]

Fascinating and tragic is an appropriate description.

And something else. I'm not sure, but something else.

[wuapinmon]

https://mormonleaks.io/newsroom/2018...-interactions/

Joseph Bishop's books and author profile has been removed from Deseret Book's website.

That was hard to read.

[Goatnapper'96]

Dude, I only skimmed it. C'mon fess up. You've listened to all the Dehlin marathons!

I was intrigued by her capacity to face her former perpetrator. His ability to deal with facing her. Her capacity to reign in her righteous anger and even their both capacity to see the damage caused by his actions but still hope for forgiveness and peace for each other. I am really interested where she went after the experience. To me she is the exact example that Christ was referencing when he said that whole hurting a little child and millstone walking the plank stuff. That interview, in my perspective, speaks of the generational impact of sin but how there is still hope for peace in Christ.

Does Dehlin talk about that type of stuff? My take is his angle on this interview would be the investigative reporting on the widespread coverup..blahblahblahblah.

[falafel]

I'm actually kind of amazed at how both of them finished the conversation, each saying that they wanted healing and that they would work together, if possible, to accomplish that. I'm also amazed the Bishop kept his composure, for lack of a better phrase, throughout the interview. I had never heard of him before this, but he really did seem sincere.

Bishop seems to understand that they were recording (did she tell him that at the beginning?), and so kudos to him for speaking so openly on record. I wonder how this tape was released? Did the accuser release it? Did someone else get a hold of it and send it to MormonLeaks?

[Goatnapper'96]

I'm actually kind of amazed at how both of them finished the conversation, each saying that they wanted healing and that they would work together, if possible, to accomplish that. I'm also amazed the Bishop kept his composure, for lack of a better phrase, throughout the interview. I had never heard of him before this, but he really did seem sincere.

I thought it was very raw and quite honestly I came away impressed by both of them and genuinely convinced they both will get seats at the table when the final banquet rolls around.

[wuapinmon]

I thought it was very raw and quite honestly I came away impressed by both of them and genuinely convinced they both will get seats at the table when the final banquet rolls around.

I was impressed with her. He kept talking about his "addiction." There's something about how he framed his crimes under an addiction that doesn't sit well with me. I'm going to think on it some more and see if I can figure out why I feel the way I do. That line about "be careful with the lawyers" at the end was self-serving, pathetic, and wise.

[Goatnapper'96]

I was impressed with her. He kept talking about his "addiction." There's something about how he framed his crimes under an addiction that doesn't sit well with me. I'm going to think on it some more and see if I can figure out why I feel the way I do. That line about "be careful with the lawyers" at the end was self-serving, pathetic, and wise.

It doesn't sit well with you because he was seeking to blame his addiction for what he did to others. I could be wrong and it was hard at times to make sense of it all clearly but I thought he indicated he was molested himself as a child. However, he is a white kid from the lap of luxury off of the mean streets of western Millard County so I doubt the Academy will validate his excuse for his behavior. I, personally, think he was a seriously f'd up human but I believe he is finding peace and will continue to find it.

[wuapinmon]

It doesn't sit well with you because he was seeking to blame his addiction for what he did to others. I could be wrong and it was hard at times to make sense of it all clearly but I thought he indicated he was molested himself as a child. However, he is a white kid from the lap of luxury off of the mean streets of western Millard County so I doubt the Academy will validate his excuse for his behavior. I, personally, think he was a seriously f'd up human but I believe he is finding peace and will continue to find it.

It seems that he inferred that he was in one of those gray redacted portions. Don't lump me in with social justice warriors. I think he was seriously messed up too, but if Carlos Asay knew what he had done, or that he was an addict, and left him there...even after threatening to kill himself, then I don't know what to say. There are sex addictions, but grooming and raping people are not about your addiction. When you make victims, your addiction takes second fiddle to the suffering you have engendered. Blaming something on an addiction, repeatedly, rather than mentioning it once or twice, seems an attempt to deflect blame.

But, there were some moments like when he said that Asay probably saw to it that he never became a GA, even if he didn't do anything for the woman, where you can see that he owned--mostly--what he had done. But, if we frame it like this, "I stole some money because I was addicted to stealing, and that made it so my bosses at the bank would never let me be a vice president of the bank, only a branch manager who did these really amazing (substitute for spiritual) mortgages for customers, and on occasion, I would still embezzle or try to embezzle their money, if my calculator would turn on," to me, it seems ridiculous that the bank didn't just fire him.

So, that was a difficult, fascinating read, and I don't think I can condemn him. But, I can say that something about his constant appeal to his addiction doesn't sit well with me.

[Pelado]

I, too, was impressed with her capacity to hear him out - especially with respect to his thinking on his own hypocrisy. She seemed to be truly interested in understanding how he rationalized his behavior.

I was disappointed that she was not able to get a full admission and apology from him. I'd have to go back and look again to be sure, but it seemed like he admitted to having the basement room as she described it, to taking her down there, but couldn't remember what he'd actually done once they arrived.

Based on his admitting to the existence of the basement room, I would have to agree with her supposition that there were probably a lot more victims than what he admits to in this interview.

[falafel]

It seems that he inferred that he was in one of those gray redacted portions. Don't lump me in with social justice warriors. I think he was seriously messed up too, but if Carlos Asay knew what he had done, or that he was an addict, and left him there...even after threatening to kill himself, then I don't know what to say. There are sex addictions, but grooming and raping people are not about your addiction. When you make victims, your addiction takes second fiddle to the suffering you have engendered. Blaming something on an addiction, repeatedly, rather than mentioning it once or twice, seems an attempt to deflect blame.

But, there were some moments like when he said that Asay probably saw to it that he never became a GA, even if he didn't do anything for the woman, where you can see that he owned--mostly--what he had done. But, if we frame it like this, "I stole some money because I was addicted to stealing, and that made it so my bosses at the bank would never let me be a vice president of the bank, only a branch manager who did these really amazing (substitute for spiritual) mortgages for customers, and on occasion, I would still embezzle or try to embezzle their money, if my calculator would turn on," to me, it seems ridiculous that the bank didn't just fire him.

So, that was a difficult, fascinating read, and I don't think I can condemn him. But, I can say that something about his constant appeal to his addiction doesn't sit well with me.

I think the dude was born and raised in a time when sexual addiction was not very well understood, let alone treated. I think he is honest when he says that he didn't really understand his own problems (i.e., that it was an addiction) until somewhat recently. This is supported by the fact that he just "tried really hard" to stop acting out. There's also a lot of the shame cycle in what he says. This tells me he has only started to come to terms with his behavior as an addiction, meaning something that you can't just power through. I think you have to have some amount of pity for a person in that situation, although you certainly do not need to excuse what he did.

[falafel]

I, too, was impressed with her capacity to hear him out - especially with respect to his thinking on his own hypocrisy. She seemed to be truly interested in understanding how he rationalized his behavior.

I was disappointed that she was not able to get a full admission and apology from him. I'd have to go back and look again to be sure, but it seemed like he admitted to having the basement room as she described it, to taking her down there, but couldn't remember what he'd actually done once they arrived.

Based on his admitting to the existence of the basement room, I would have to agree with her supposition that there were probably a lot more victims than what he admits to in this interview.

This is part of what makes the account so interesting (and confusing). He's 85. He knows he's being recorded. He's sick and dying (apparently). He admits to 95% of what she alleges, and even volunteers things he did with/to other women. Yet he doesn't admit to the rape. Maybe he just cannot come to the point of admitting that most horrible thing, or maybe its something else. I don't know.

[Donuthole]

I think the dude was born and raised in a time when sexual addiction was not very well understood, let alone treated. I think he is honest when he says that he didn't really understand his own problems (i.e., that it was an addiction) until somewhat recently. This is supported by the fact that he just "tried really hard" to stop acting out. There's also a lot of the shame cycle in what he says. This tells me he has only started to come to terms with his behavior as an addiction, meaning something that you can't just power through. I think you have to have some amount of pity for a person in that situation, although you certainly do not need to excuse what he did.

I think that's a generous interpretation. I see someone who has a history of not coming fully clean because of what that might do to him and his position/reputation, both within the church and professionally. For example, in Argentina as a missionary, he didn't come completely clean, likely because he would have been sent home. It worked out for him. He got his conscience cleared and he didn't suffer the consequences. I have no reason to believe this process then didn't continue when he claims he talked to Elder Asay, etc. Telling himself he would "try really hard" to stop was his way of reconciling the fact that he liked the leadership positions he was receiving, but he knew that if he came clean, he would lose the prestige and be shamed. So he would either confess to bits and pieces--enough to assuage his guilt but keep his positions--or he would tell himself that he was trying really hard not to do them. But I don't doubt for one second that he knew he should be coming completely clean and facing the consequences. He can't blame that on addiction.

[falafel]

I think that's a generous interpretation. I see someone who has a history of not coming fully clean because of what that might do to him and his position/reputation, both within the church and professionally. For example, in Argentina as a missionary, he didn't come completely clean, likely because he would have been sent home. It worked out for him. He got his conscience cleared and he didn't suffer the consequences. I have no reason to believe this process then didn't continue when he claims he talked to Elder Asay, etc. Telling himself he would "try really hard" to stop was his way of reconciling the fact that he liked the leadership positions he was receiving, but he knew that if he came clean, he would lose the prestige and be shamed. So he would either confess to bits and pieces--enough to assuage his guilt but keep his positions--or he would tell himself that he was trying really hard not to do them. But I don't doubt for one second that he knew he should be coming completely clean and facing the consequences. He can't blame that on addiction.

I agree with this. He doesn't get points for partial confessions, especially when the stakes continued to rise when he got bigger and bigger callings and more and more responsibility over young and vulnerable people.

My comment was more directed to him not understanding the nature of his problem - i.e., that it was an addiction, and not just a sin. I think he labored under the impression that he was simply a sinner, and that he just needed to keep trying real hard to stop sinning (even if he didn't end up trying that hard, like you noted). Trying is not going to get you out of an addiction.

[Donuthole]

I agree with this. He doesn't get points for partial confessions, especially when the stakes continued to rise when he got bigger and bigger callings and more and more responsibility over young and vulnerable people.

My comment was more directed to him not understanding the nature of his problem - i.e., that it was an addiction, and not just a sin. I think he labored under the impression that he was simply a sinner, and that he just needed to keep trying real hard to stop sinning (even if he didn't end up trying that hard, like you noted). Trying is not going to get you out of an addiction.

I guess I'm not convinced that he is a sex addict. I think most men are "sex addicts" in the same sense that he was, i.e. attracted to women and would really, really like to bone the women they are attracted to, especially if it could be done in a vacuum (in, not with!) where it wouldn't be discovered and/or affect their personal life. Succumbing to that temptation when the opportunity presents itself doesn't make you an addict. Intentionally putting yourself in that position and then doing your best to seal the deal doesn't make you and addict. And no, even ripping the close off of someone and attempting to rape them doesn't make you an addict. It makes you a stupid man who is not good at controlling his urges.

[Bo Diddley]

I think that's a generous interpretation. I see someone who has a history of not coming fully clean because of what that might do to him and his position/reputation, both within the church and professionally. For example, in Argentina as a missionary, he didn't come completely clean, likely because he would have been sent home. It worked out for him. He got his conscience cleared and he didn't suffer the consequences. I have no reason to believe this process then didn't continue when he claims he talked to Elder Asay, etc. Telling himself he would "try really hard" to stop was his way of reconciling the fact that he liked the leadership positions he was receiving, but he knew that if he came clean, he would lose the prestige and be shamed. So he would either confess to bits and pieces--enough to assuage his guilt but keep his positions--or he would tell himself that he was trying really hard not to do them. But I don't doubt for one second that he knew he should be coming completely clean and facing the consequences. He can't blame that on addiction.

I agree. He's also a pathological liar who has come to believe his own lies. It was never as bad as it really was because he's conned himself and bought into the false narrative. This is why he won't or can't remember doing what he did to her.

It was difficult for me to follow at times because of the choppy edits. What was the deal with the missionary he molested by rubbing her back? Was there more to it than that I missed, or was that truly what constituted the molestation? I wouldn't be surprised to find it was more than that, but he's conned himself into thinking that's all it was.

I also never really followed what happened with the lady in the skimpy bathing suit.

What a sad life to have lived.