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  • Originally posted by creekster View Post
    The ranks of Deists swell.

    I can't say I agree with your characterization. But in effect, you are right. God doesn't stage manage the church organization. He lets it unfold in all its messy and error-filled way.
    Pretty much summarizes our discourse over the past decade.

    As a progammer, I am also a Deist of sorts. The gospel is an abstract class. The scriptures define certain abstract methods in that class like abstract void LoveYourNeighborAsYouself(). The Church is the instantiation of that abstract class and all abstract methods are required to be implemented, such as void LoveYourNeighborAsYouself(). Now how that method is implemented is the imperfect result of the programmers... e.g. the collection of leaders over the last 170 and some odd years. That method can call other stuff like List<MonthlyReports> DoHomeTeachingEveryMonth() at one point in its revision history, or it can call stuff like List<QuarterlyReport> GoMinisterToYourFamilies() - doesn't matter. The point is not really what is contained in the implementation of the abstract method, but the fact that the method has been implemented in some way. The person that authored the abstract class created a blueprint. The author included many abstract methods therein. The author doesn't give two shits how the method gets done (e.g. implemented), just GET IT DONE - and don't tell me about how you did it (void).

    I view the Corp of the Church in that same way. It is man's best instantiation of the Gospel class. At the surface, it looks clean and utilitarian with nice sounding methods and a cool, clean interface. But feel back the layers and you find kludges and imperfections and pages and pages of if ... else if... else if... else statements (using cuddled curly braces FFS!). The implementation will never be perfect and it is perilously stupid to think so. Just log it as a bug, patch up the code to prevent it from occurring in the future, and move on.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
    Almost everything you post is snarky, smug, condescending, or just downright mean-spirited. --Jeffrey Lebowski

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump
    You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

    Comment


    • Originally posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
      I’m not going anywhere. I’ve already reiterated that. I’m willing to be naive like a child I guess. You say middle management isn’t influenced by God. I say all of my experiences in church are being instructed that these callings are issued after thoughtful prayer and inspiration from God. Most recently when we got a new SP an apostle told us that God not the apostle had called this man to lead us. So is that lie just more fallibility of the apostle or confusion of an old man or was he telling us that God did in fact reveal to him who to call?

      So as I asked earlier am I being asked to sacrifice my allowance and play time to God leading this or exceptional men who do their best but are sometimes going to say stupid things and rape? I’m in, I love being in, but I’d like to know. Because at present they aren’t saying “We’re exceptional men who sometimes say dumb things and rape” they are saying we are prophets, seers and revelators and we ask that you will state that you believe we are such to be fully immersed in Mormonism.
      You know what the answer is.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
        What HFNW is asking, gentlemen, is where do you draw a line? Where does God draw a line? Is there a line? Could there be a line? If there is no line, what's the point of having an interview before, during, or after about worthiness to hold a calling? If you can do, apparently, almost anything, and get and/or remain in a calling, what does any of it matter?

        Juxtapose that with, say, maybe, a board member who, you know, was serving a mission, and felt guilty about something they had done BEFORE their mission, felt godly sorrow, confessed it, and was sent home in disgrace, and only had one person even treat them like a human being when he got home early from his mission. Consider that perspective.

        HFNW is asking, truly, if there is any Providence in this world, at all, when does it come in? As missionaries we preach that "God is no respecter of persons," but if you're that young man sent home early, reading about this guy getting to remain as MISSION PRESIDENT, later called as the <REDACTED> <REDACTED> <REDACTED> MTC PRESIDENT, I can see, easily, how you might begin to wonder, you know, what the <Redacting><Redacted>, God?
        For an academic/intellectual, it is remarkable to me how little nuance you are willing to apply to this.
        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

        Comment


        • Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
          What HFNW is asking, gentlemen, is where do you draw a line? Where does God draw a line? Is there a line? Could there be a line? If there is no line, what's the point of having an interview before, during, or after about worthiness to hold a calling? If you can do, apparently, almost anything, and get and/or remain in a calling, what does any of it matter?

          Juxtapose that with, say, maybe, a board member who, you know, was serving a mission, and felt guilty about something they had done BEFORE their mission, felt godly sorrow, confessed it, and was sent home in disgrace, and only had one person even treat them like a human being when he got home early from his mission. Consider that perspective.

          HFNW is asking, truly, if there is any Providence in this world, at all, when does it come in? As missionaries we preach that "God is no respecter of persons," but if you're that young man sent home early, reading about this guy getting to remain as MISSION PRESIDENT, later called as the <REDACTED> <REDACTED> <REDACTED> MTC PRESIDENT, I can see, easily, how you might begin to wonder, you know, what the <Redacting><Redacted>, God?
          By offering up the example you do you prove my point. Where do YOU think we draw the line? Can it be drawn while maintaining agency? I think a lot of inspiration is really just the result of people doing their best to live, emulate and implement gospel principles in their lives and minds which then informs their decisions. We wont be tempted beyond that which we can bear? Of course not, because we are divine creatures and thus none could ever be so tempted. But that may not be the same thing as saying we will not be tempted beyond our capacity to respond correctly in this life, given our backgrounds and genetic or environmental proclivities. And God is no respecter of persons? If he prevented, selectively, some of us from the effect of others' sins then he would be.

          I want to be clear, I am only offering up what I think. I am not trying to claim that I am correct, and certainly not that this represents inspiration. It is just how I see it. But as I have tried to grapple with these ideas, and make them fit with my personal experiences, I can only conclude that agency must be the paramount principal. For all of us. If there is justice it will never be in this life. Nothing here is justice unless it is coincidence or a fortuity. And God must satisfy justice, or else he would cease to be God (which I think gives us another clue about the nature of things).
          PLesa excuse the tpyos.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
            I’m not going anywhere. I’ve already reiterated that. I’m willing to be naive like a child I guess. You say middle management isn’t influenced by God. I say all of my experiences in church are being instructed that these callings are issued after thoughtful prayer and inspiration from God. Most recently when we got a new SP an apostle told us that God not the apostle had called this man to lead us. So is that lie just more fallibility of the apostle or confusion of an old man or was he telling us that God did in fact reveal to him who to call?
            The SP was making a statement of faith. Why do we have to make it more complicated than that?

            Originally posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
            So as I asked earlier am I being asked to sacrifice my allowance and play time to God leading this or exceptional men who do their best but are sometimes going to say stupid things and rape?
            Can't it be both? How about exceptional men who do their best to align their will and actions with God, but sometimes fall short? One thing for sure: they aren't robots programmed by God to be perfect agents of his will.

            Originally posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
            I’m in, I love being in, but I’d like to know. Because at present they aren’t saying “We’re exceptional men who sometimes say dumb things and rape” they are saying we are prophets, seers and revelators and we ask that you will state that you believe we are such to be fully immersed in Mormonism.
            You are mischaracterizing this in a cynical way.
            "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
            "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
            "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

            Comment


            • Originally posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
              I’m not going anywhere. I’ve already reiterated that. I’m willing to be naive like a child I guess. You say middle management isn’t influenced by God. I say all of my experiences in church are being instructed that these callings are issued after thoughtful prayer and inspiration from God. Most recently when we got a new SP an apostle told us that God not the apostle had called this man to lead us. So is that lie just more fallibility of the apostle or confusion of an old man or was he telling us that God did in fact reveal to him who to call?
              I said that I believe that God doesn't care... is indifferent (e.g. that any from a handful of equally qualified candidates will do a sufficient job), which I think it compatible with the above. So, the old man says "This is the SP, all your ward are now belong to him" ... because (in part) he said he prayed about it. Under what cause to you have to doubt him? Were you sitting in the room while your new SP and any/all other candidates were interviewed? Did you pour over the resumes of previous work experience and read over the references for each candidate? And after all that due diligence, were you with the old man when he sought to confirm his selection with prayer? The dude did all the work, DC 9:9'd that thing, and then concludes... so let it be written.

              OK, so then when next month when your shiny new SP is perp walking for child porn, what do you then conclude? That the Lord let it happen?!

              Sorry, but that's just not how I understand this shit to work. Given an imperfect understanding, you have to expect imperfect results.


              Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
              What HFNW is asking, gentlemen, is where do you draw a line? Where does God draw a line? Is there a line? Could there be a line? If there is no line, what's the point of having an interview before, during, or after about worthiness to hold a calling? If you can do, apparently, almost anything, and get and/or remain in a calling, what does any of it matter?
              You hold interviews in any corporate setting for the same reasons: to screen out the obviously unqualified, to evaluate those that are qualified, and to make a selection from the highest qualified.
              You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
              Almost everything you post is snarky, smug, condescending, or just downright mean-spirited. --Jeffrey Lebowski

              Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump
              You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

              Comment


              • Originally posted by falafel View Post
                I don't get it. God allows some men to do horrible things, but not the one's he's chosen?
                So we've established that men do horrible things, and God did nothing to stop them. What tangible evidence do we have of God intervening to stop any horrible things?
                "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

                Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
                  You hold interviews in any corporate setting for the same reasons: to screen out the obviously unqualified, to evaluate those that are qualified, and to make a selection from the highest qualified.
                  Or to make certain somebody goes along with the program, at least in word.
                  "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

                  Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                    For an academic/intellectual, it is remarkable to me how little nuance you are willing to apply to this.
                    I'm a fraud; you got me.

                    Originally posted by creekster View Post
                    By offering up the example you do you prove my point. Where do YOU think we draw the line? Can it be drawn while maintaining agency? I think a lot of inspiration is really just the result of people doing their best to live, emulate and implement gospel principles in their lives and minds which then informs their decisions. We wont be tempted beyond that which we can bear? Of course not, because we are divine creatures and thus none could ever be so tempted. But that may not be the same thing as saying we will not be tempted beyond our capacity to respond correctly in this life, given our backgrounds and genetic or environmental proclivities. And God is no respecter of persons? If he prevented, selectively, some of us from the effect of others' sins then he would be.

                    I want to be clear, I am only offering up what I think. I am not trying to claim that I am correct, and certainly not that this represents inspiration. It is just how I see it. But as I have tried to grapple with these ideas, and make them fit with my personal experiences, I can only conclude that agency must be the paramount principal. For all of us. If there is justice it will never be in this life. Nothing here is justice unless it is coincidence or a fortuity. And God must satisfy justice, or else he would cease to be God (which I think gives us another clue about the nature of things).
                    If you go back and look at my post history, over the last decade now, you'll see that I'm about standing up to bullies, seeking justice, and asking wtf to God. Before I joined the Church, I didn't believe in God. I did for a season. I tried, truly. I poured my soul into it, reading everything. I convinced myself that there was something here. The testimonies of others helped me to believe. The constant reassurance that this church was different helped mine unbelief, my chronic skepticism. My natural inclination to go, "but, what about" inside my mind when someone would say something.

                    Knowing about stuff was one thing. I knew about the warts. Learning now about how those warts were lied about, about how the rumors of cover ups are true. I won't make a list because JL will just fixate on that rather than on the idea I'm saying here. Anyway, the cognitive dissonance is too much. I can't do it anymore. This is all there is. You and I are just good men trying to do our best. We are left to our own devices trying to adhere to a code set down by a good man a couple of thousand years ago, a great way to live. If we practice it, we will live a good life and maybe prosper. If we do not prosper, we should still forgive, because that is what will help others prosper, because if we do not forgive, that only creates more discord in the world, and that ripples through the world like a pebble in a pond. The Church might be a good way to help us live that code, but the culture of the Church is pathological to many (gay, intersexed) and toxic to others (those who cross it--so-called apostates), so best to go on, take the money and run, woe, woe, woe.
                    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
                      I'm a fraud; you got me.



                      If you go back and look at my post history, over the last decade now, you'll see that I'm about standing up to bullies, seeking justice, and asking wtf to God. Before I joined the Church, I didn't believe in God. I did for a season. I tried, truly. I poured my soul into it, reading everything. I convinced myself that there was something here. The testimonies of others helped me to believe. The constant reassurance that this church was different helped mine unbelief, my chronic skepticism. My natural inclination to go, "but, what about" inside my mind when someone would say something.

                      Knowing about stuff was one thing. I knew about the warts. Learning now about how those warts were lied about, about how the rumors of cover ups are true. I won't make a list because JL will just fixate on that rather than on the idea I'm saying here. Anyway, the cognitive dissonance is too much. I can't do it anymore. This is all there is. You and I are just good men trying to do our best. We are left to our own devices trying to adhere to a code set down by a good man a couple of thousand years ago, a great way to live. If we practice it, we will live a good life and maybe prosper. If we do not prosper, we should still forgive, because that is what will help others prosper, because if we do not forgive, that only creates more discord in the world, and that ripples through the world like a pebble in a pond. The Church might be a good way to help us live that code, but the culture of the Church is pathological to many (gay, intersexed) and toxic to others (those who cross it--so-called apostates), so best to go on, take the money and run, woe, woe, woe.
                      You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
                      Almost everything you post is snarky, smug, condescending, or just downright mean-spirited. --Jeffrey Lebowski

                      Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump
                      You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

                      Comment


                      • I'm taking a break from the board for a while. I'll be back, but I need some space. This is making me sad in real life, and when it gets like that, I need to walk away until it doesn't.
                        "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
                          I'm taking a break from the board for a while. I'll be back, but I need some space. This is making me sad in real life, and when it gets like that, I need to walk away until it doesn't.
                          oh no please don't go.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
                            You don't want to get into an adjective fight with me, motherfucker.
                            "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
                              You don't want to get into an adjective fight with me, motherfucker.
                              LANGUAGE!!!

                              Comment


                              • and in the end, hfn and wuap were right all along.
                                Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

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