Page 44 of 50 FirstFirst ... 344243444546 ... LastLast
Results 1,291 to 1,320 of 1472

Thread: Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

  1. #1291
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    West of House
    Posts
    2,398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    The ranks of Deists swell.

    I can't say I agree with your characterization. But in effect, you are right. God doesn't stage manage the church organization. He lets it unfold in all its messy and error-filled way.
    Pretty much summarizes our discourse over the past decade.

    As a progammer, I am also a Deist of sorts. The gospel is an abstract class. The scriptures define certain abstract methods in that class like abstract void LoveYourNeighborAsYouself(). The Church is the instantiation of that abstract class and all abstract methods are required to be implemented, such as void LoveYourNeighborAsYouself(). Now how that method is implemented is the imperfect result of the programmers... e.g. the collection of leaders over the last 170 and some odd years. That method can call other stuff like List<MonthlyReports> DoHomeTeachingEveryMonth() at one point in its revision history, or it can call stuff like List<QuarterlyReport> GoMinisterToYourFamilies() - doesn't matter. The point is not really what is contained in the implementation of the abstract method, but the fact that the method has been implemented in some way. The person that authored the abstract class created a blueprint. The author included many abstract methods therein. The author doesn't give two shits how the method gets done (e.g. implemented), just GET IT DONE - and don't tell me about how you did it (void).

    I view the Corp of the Church in that same way. It is man's best instantiation of the Gospel class. At the surface, it looks clean and utilitarian with nice sounding methods and a cool, clean interface. But feel back the layers and you find kludges and imperfections and pages and pages of if ... else if... else if... else statements (using cuddled curly braces FFS!). The implementation will never be perfect and it is perilously stupid to think so. Just log it as a bug, patch up the code to prevent it from occurring in the future, and move on.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    Y'all hear that? We're using code names. --Evelle Snoats

  2. #1292
    Suomalainen New Mexican Disaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Free State of Nickajack
    Posts
    4,397

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
    I’m not going anywhere. I’ve already reiterated that. I’m willing to be naive like a child I guess. You say middle management isn’t influenced by God. I say all of my experiences in church are being instructed that these callings are issued after thoughtful prayer and inspiration from God. Most recently when we got a new SP an apostle told us that God not the apostle had called this man to lead us. So is that lie just more fallibility of the apostle or confusion of an old man or was he telling us that God did in fact reveal to him who to call?

    So as I asked earlier am I being asked to sacrifice my allowance and play time to God leading this or exceptional men who do their best but are sometimes going to say stupid things and rape? I’m in, I love being in, but I’d like to know. Because at present they aren’t saying “We’re exceptional men who sometimes say dumb things and rape” they are saying we are prophets, seers and revelators and we ask that you will state that you believe we are such to be fully immersed in Mormonism.
    You know what the answer is.

  3. #1293
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    46,013

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    What HFNW is asking, gentlemen, is where do you draw a line? Where does God draw a line? Is there a line? Could there be a line? If there is no line, what's the point of having an interview before, during, or after about worthiness to hold a calling? If you can do, apparently, almost anything, and get and/or remain in a calling, what does any of it matter?

    Juxtapose that with, say, maybe, a board member who, you know, was serving a mission, and felt guilty about something they had done BEFORE their mission, felt godly sorrow, confessed it, and was sent home in disgrace, and only had one person even treat them like a human being when he got home early from his mission. Consider that perspective.

    HFNW is asking, truly, if there is any Providence in this world, at all, when does it come in? As missionaries we preach that "God is no respecter of persons," but if you're that young man sent home early, reading about this guy getting to remain as MISSION PRESIDENT, later called as the <REDACTED> <REDACTED> <REDACTED> MTC PRESIDENT, I can see, easily, how you might begin to wonder, you know, what the <Redacting><Redacted>, God?
    For an academic/intellectual, it is remarkable to me how little nuance you are willing to apply to this.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  4. #1294
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The Creek
    Posts
    20,767

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    What HFNW is asking, gentlemen, is where do you draw a line? Where does God draw a line? Is there a line? Could there be a line? If there is no line, what's the point of having an interview before, during, or after about worthiness to hold a calling? If you can do, apparently, almost anything, and get and/or remain in a calling, what does any of it matter?

    Juxtapose that with, say, maybe, a board member who, you know, was serving a mission, and felt guilty about something they had done BEFORE their mission, felt godly sorrow, confessed it, and was sent home in disgrace, and only had one person even treat them like a human being when he got home early from his mission. Consider that perspective.

    HFNW is asking, truly, if there is any Providence in this world, at all, when does it come in? As missionaries we preach that "God is no respecter of persons," but if you're that young man sent home early, reading about this guy getting to remain as MISSION PRESIDENT, later called as the <REDACTED> <REDACTED> <REDACTED> MTC PRESIDENT, I can see, easily, how you might begin to wonder, you know, what the <Redacting><Redacted>, God?
    By offering up the example you do you prove my point. Where do YOU think we draw the line? Can it be drawn while maintaining agency? I think a lot of inspiration is really just the result of people doing their best to live, emulate and implement gospel principles in their lives and minds which then informs their decisions. We wont be tempted beyond that which we can bear? Of course not, because we are divine creatures and thus none could ever be so tempted. But that may not be the same thing as saying we will not be tempted beyond our capacity to respond correctly in this life, given our backgrounds and genetic or environmental proclivities. And God is no respecter of persons? If he prevented, selectively, some of us from the effect of others' sins then he would be.

    I want to be clear, I am only offering up what I think. I am not trying to claim that I am correct, and certainly not that this represents inspiration. It is just how I see it. But as I have tried to grapple with these ideas, and make them fit with my personal experiences, I can only conclude that agency must be the paramount principal. For all of us. If there is justice it will never be in this life. Nothing here is justice unless it is coincidence or a fortuity. And God must satisfy justice, or else he would cease to be God (which I think gives us another clue about the nature of things).
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  5. #1295
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    46,013

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
    Iím not going anywhere. Iíve already reiterated that. Iím willing to be naive like a child I guess. You say middle management isnít influenced by God. I say all of my experiences in church are being instructed that these callings are issued after thoughtful prayer and inspiration from God. Most recently when we got a new SP an apostle told us that God not the apostle had called this man to lead us. So is that lie just more fallibility of the apostle or confusion of an old man or was he telling us that God did in fact reveal to him who to call?
    The SP was making a statement of faith. Why do we have to make it more complicated than that?

    Quote Originally Posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
    So as I asked earlier am I being asked to sacrifice my allowance and play time to God leading this or exceptional men who do their best but are sometimes going to say stupid things and rape?
    Can't it be both? How about exceptional men who do their best to align their will and actions with God, but sometimes fall short? One thing for sure: they aren't robots programmed by God to be perfect agents of his will.

    Quote Originally Posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
    Iím in, I love being in, but Iíd like to know. Because at present they arenít saying ďWeíre exceptional men who sometimes say dumb things and rapeĒ they are saying we are prophets, seers and revelators and we ask that you will state that you believe we are such to be fully immersed in Mormonism.
    You are mischaracterizing this in a cynical way.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  6. #1296
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    West of House
    Posts
    2,398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
    Iím not going anywhere. Iíve already reiterated that. Iím willing to be naive like a child I guess. You say middle management isnít influenced by God. I say all of my experiences in church are being instructed that these callings are issued after thoughtful prayer and inspiration from God. Most recently when we got a new SP an apostle told us that God not the apostle had called this man to lead us. So is that lie just more fallibility of the apostle or confusion of an old man or was he telling us that God did in fact reveal to him who to call?
    I said that I believe that God doesn't care... is indifferent (e.g. that any from a handful of equally qualified candidates will do a sufficient job), which I think it compatible with the above. So, the old man says "This is the SP, all your ward are now belong to him" ... because (in part) he said he prayed about it. Under what cause to you have to doubt him? Were you sitting in the room while your new SP and any/all other candidates were interviewed? Did you pour over the resumes of previous work experience and read over the references for each candidate? And after all that due diligence, were you with the old man when he sought to confirm his selection with prayer? The dude did all the work, DC 9:9'd that thing, and then concludes... so let it be written.

    OK, so then when next month when your shiny new SP is perp walking for child porn, what do you then conclude? That the Lord let it happen?!

    Sorry, but that's just not how I understand this shit to work. Given an imperfect understanding, you have to expect imperfect results.


    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    What HFNW is asking, gentlemen, is where do you draw a line? Where does God draw a line? Is there a line? Could there be a line? If there is no line, what's the point of having an interview before, during, or after about worthiness to hold a calling? If you can do, apparently, almost anything, and get and/or remain in a calling, what does any of it matter?
    You hold interviews in any corporate setting for the same reasons: to screen out the obviously unqualified, to evaluate those that are qualified, and to make a selection from the highest qualified.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    Y'all hear that? We're using code names. --Evelle Snoats

  7. #1297
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    10,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    I don't get it. God allows some men to do horrible things, but not the one's he's chosen?
    So we've established that men do horrible things, and God did nothing to stop them. What tangible evidence do we have of God intervening to stop any horrible things?
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  8. #1298
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    10,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    You hold interviews in any corporate setting for the same reasons: to screen out the obviously unqualified, to evaluate those that are qualified, and to make a selection from the highest qualified.
    Or to make certain somebody goes along with the program, at least in word.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  9. #1299
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    28,208

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    For an academic/intellectual, it is remarkable to me how little nuance you are willing to apply to this.
    I'm a fraud; you got me.

    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    By offering up the example you do you prove my point. Where do YOU think we draw the line? Can it be drawn while maintaining agency? I think a lot of inspiration is really just the result of people doing their best to live, emulate and implement gospel principles in their lives and minds which then informs their decisions. We wont be tempted beyond that which we can bear? Of course not, because we are divine creatures and thus none could ever be so tempted. But that may not be the same thing as saying we will not be tempted beyond our capacity to respond correctly in this life, given our backgrounds and genetic or environmental proclivities. And God is no respecter of persons? If he prevented, selectively, some of us from the effect of others' sins then he would be.

    I want to be clear, I am only offering up what I think. I am not trying to claim that I am correct, and certainly not that this represents inspiration. It is just how I see it. But as I have tried to grapple with these ideas, and make them fit with my personal experiences, I can only conclude that agency must be the paramount principal. For all of us. If there is justice it will never be in this life. Nothing here is justice unless it is coincidence or a fortuity. And God must satisfy justice, or else he would cease to be God (which I think gives us another clue about the nature of things).
    If you go back and look at my post history, over the last decade now, you'll see that I'm about standing up to bullies, seeking justice, and asking wtf to God. Before I joined the Church, I didn't believe in God. I did for a season. I tried, truly. I poured my soul into it, reading everything. I convinced myself that there was something here. The testimonies of others helped me to believe. The constant reassurance that this church was different helped mine unbelief, my chronic skepticism. My natural inclination to go, "but, what about" inside my mind when someone would say something.

    Knowing about stuff was one thing. I knew about the warts. Learning now about how those warts were lied about, about how the rumors of cover ups are true. I won't make a list because JL will just fixate on that rather than on the idea I'm saying here. Anyway, the cognitive dissonance is too much. I can't do it anymore. This is all there is. You and I are just good men trying to do our best. We are left to our own devices trying to adhere to a code set down by a good man a couple of thousand years ago, a great way to live. If we practice it, we will live a good life and maybe prosper. If we do not prosper, we should still forgive, because that is what will help others prosper, because if we do not forgive, that only creates more discord in the world, and that ripples through the world like a pebble in a pond. The Church might be a good way to help us live that code, but the culture of the Church is pathological to many (gay, intersexed) and toxic to others (those who cross it--so-called apostates), so best to go on, take the money and run, woe, woe, woe.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  10. #1300
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    West of House
    Posts
    2,398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    I'm a fraud; you got me.



    If you go back and look at my post history, over the last decade now, you'll see that I'm about standing up to bullies, seeking justice, and asking wtf to God. Before I joined the Church, I didn't believe in God. I did for a season. I tried, truly. I poured my soul into it, reading everything. I convinced myself that there was something here. The testimonies of others helped me to believe. The constant reassurance that this church was different helped mine unbelief, my chronic skepticism. My natural inclination to go, "but, what about" inside my mind when someone would say something.

    Knowing about stuff was one thing. I knew about the warts. Learning now about how those warts were lied about, about how the rumors of cover ups are true. I won't make a list because JL will just fixate on that rather than on the idea I'm saying here. Anyway, the cognitive dissonance is too much. I can't do it anymore. This is all there is. You and I are just good men trying to do our best. We are left to our own devices trying to adhere to a code set down by a good man a couple of thousand years ago, a great way to live. If we practice it, we will live a good life and maybe prosper. If we do not prosper, we should still forgive, because that is what will help others prosper, because if we do not forgive, that only creates more discord in the world, and that ripples through the world like a pebble in a pond. The Church might be a good way to help us live that code, but the culture of the Church is pathological to many (gay, intersexed) and toxic to others (those who cross it--so-called apostates), so best to go on, take the money and run, woe, woe, woe.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    Y'all hear that? We're using code names. --Evelle Snoats

  11. #1301
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    28,208

    Default

    I'm taking a break from the board for a while. I'll be back, but I need some space. This is making me sad in real life, and when it gets like that, I need to walk away until it doesn't.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  12. #1302

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    I'm taking a break from the board for a while. I'll be back, but I need some space. This is making me sad in real life, and when it gets like that, I need to walk away until it doesn't.
    oh no please don't go.

  13. #1303
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    28,208

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    You don't want to get into an adjective fight with me, motherfucker.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  14. #1304

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    You don't want to get into an adjective fight with me, motherfucker.
    LANGUAGE!!!

  15. #1305

    Default

    and in the end, hfn and wuap were right all along.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  16. #1306

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    LANGUAGE!!!
    One of the things that always makes me smile about this community is YO taking offense at someone cussing, then a week later swearing a blue streak.

    Hasn’t gotten old yet. Yeah, I’m pathetic.

  17. #1307

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    One of the things that always makes me smile about this community is YO taking offense at someone cussing, then a week later swearing a blue streak.

    Hasn’t gotten old yet. Yeah, I’m pathetic.
    yohio doesn’t curse
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  18. #1308

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    From D&C 121:

    We are all jerks to some degree. I bet even PAC has his moments. (DON'T @ ME!)
    Yes, all men including myself. I have even posed the idea that on a distribution of debauchery risk that Christ sits alone at one end and all of humankind are bunched up at the other. Those that are concerned with their separation from the rest of the pack are missing the whole point. In my earlier musings I mentioned that it's important for all of us to realize that given the right set of circumstances, we all are capable of being Bishop. There are a few extraordinary people that are willing to risk all and be the person that hides Anne Frank, but it's just as (possibly more) likely you could be a prison guard at Auschwitz. (Referencing Jordan Peterson again here).

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Man, if you ever come to a conclusion, please, share it, you'll have solved something that no one ever has. I spent five years chasing it only to find at the end that I had learned that I had only glimpsed a drop in the bucket of what had been written on it---IN ENGLISH!
    Obviously the 30 years from my mission hasn't been spent entirely thinking about this, and I haven't read nearly the to the level you have, so if your drop is my bucket...I've got a lot of reading to do, which is probably pointless. I can see why Peterson has reached the conclusion about God that he has. To address the question of God from a psychological level, but not dismiss the possibility of the metaphysical either. You can't just arbitrarily dismiss the mystical experience, considering that much of it is reproducible. It it certainly possible that there is a whole body of knowledge and experience that is being veiled from us because our minds would simply be overloaded with the information. It's interesting that religious "revelation" is very similar to experiences with psychedelics. Peterson quoting Jung on psychedelics, "Beware of unearned wisdom". And Peterson alone,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Peterson
    ...and I really like that because psychedelics can open the gates of perception and flood you momentarily, with information of genuine cosmic significance. That doesn't mean you're the sort of character, you're not the sort of vessel that can tolerate being filled with that kind of divine fluid, it might just break and crack you.

    So I would say, approach those things with trepidation, you should have the same attitude towards psychedelics that the ancient Israelite's had toward the Ark of the Covenant, which was that, you know, God was in there, but if you touched it accidentally, you would die. That's a pretty good general attitude to have with regards to any serious encounter with psychedelics. Those things require respect, they're not toys, they're not games, they're not fun, we don't understand what they are. But they are worth treating with tremendous respect."
    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    Or Occam's Razor, he doesn't intervene or he doesn't exist.
    That's also a possibility, but then I have to deconstruct my personal perceived interventions, which is no easy task. It involves decoupling those perceived interventions from personal use of Priesthood forms which only the LDS church promotes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    I disagree. Your statement above encapsulates the thinking of many members struggling with this issue (including possibly HFN and Moliere). I don't see it as an either/or kind of thing at all.

    In short, I think HFN and Moliere and swampfrog err when they conflate the roles of our leaders.
    This reminds me of a statement in the early part of Rough Stone Rolling. Whether or not you believe Joseph Smith received revelation from God, it's hard to dispute that he believed it after reading his personal journals. Multiple mentions of being cut off from God for an answer to a specific question, and then proceeding to search earlier revelations looking for the answer.

    I would agree with your assessment of a third option if there was some evidence of the brethren knowing that revelation/inspiration is bogus and proceeding to continue to state that they receive it when making callings. But as in the talk referenced above, I believe that they believe they receive actual inspiration for making every one of these callings. Under those conditions all of your argument falls back under option one. The alternative is a conspiracy theory of monumental proportions. That somehow the progression of being a Bishop, SP, MP, GA, Q12 or similar turns men into the types of beings willing to consciously deceive and obscure "the big secret". I don't buy that argument.

  19. #1309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    yohio doesn’t curse
    Disagree. Back me up, YO

  20. #1310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Your take seems incredibly naive (edit: creekster said it better and with more tact).

    I hope you aren't using this as your justification for leaving the Church! That would be very mpfunk of you.
    Why joke about people leaving the church?
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  21. #1311
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    46,013

    Default

    Wuap, I am sorry if you feel sad. I hope to see you back.

    These discussions are interesting. I am convinced that we humans are naturally/genetically pre-disposed to idealogical extremes. Gray areas make us uncomfortable.

    "Scriptures are the word of God --> Everything in them literally happened"
    "Joseph Smith/Brigham Young were prophets --> God commanded polygamy and the priesthood ban."
    "This is God's church --> The prophet will never lead us astray."

    Or on the other hand:

    "JS took a 14-yr-old bride --> He was a fraud about everything"
    "Seers are supposed to see the past/present/future but they missed Bishop --> They aren't really seers"
    "Some callings are clearly not inspired --> No callings are inspired"
    "Church leaders make mistakes --> Why listen to them about anything?"
    etc.

    I am convinced that real, enduring faith exists in between these two extremes. I also believe that it is a fragile and delicate thing. It can only survive with great effort and nurturing. It requires humility, optimism, and hope. It cannot abide cynicism. It also requires an ability or willingness to accept paradox and messiness; the willingness to deal with two contradictory thoughts. Exmos often mock this as "mental gymnastics". I just returned from a lecture by Terryl Givens (I think he is the greatest thinker right now in Mormonism). He gave a beautiful presentation on faith and reason and spoke of the struggle of negotiating the messy middle. He referred to "the appalling luxury of skepticism". Luxury indeed.

    So why bother? For me it is simple. When I have chosen to trust in God and believe in spite of the endless reasons to doubt, I have felt the undeniable love of God. That is my foundation.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  22. #1312
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    West of House
    Posts
    2,398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    You don't want to get into an adjective fight with me, motherfucker.
    I welcome all feedback, unwarranted or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    I would agree with your assessment of a third option if there was some evidence of the brethren knowing that revelation/inspiration is bogus and proceeding to continue to state that they receive it when making callings. But as in the talk referenced above, I believe that they believe they receive actual inspiration for making every one of these callings. Under those conditions all of your argument falls back under option one. The alternative is a conspiracy theory of monumental proportions. That somehow the progression of being a Bishop, SP, MP, GA, Q12 or similar turns men into the types of beings willing to consciously deceive and obscure "the big secret". I don't buy that argument.
    I am sure that they ("the brethren") actually believe it matters. Many/most of the members in the middle-level lay ministry likely believe the same thing too; namely, that God cares who is called to such and such a position in such and such a ward or stake or region or mission or temple. Like Lebowski said, it is nothing more than a statement of faith that the person believes that they made a good decision based on the available information. Fair enough. I'm happy to take the statement at face value.

    However, I would caution against thinking that these declarations add a patina of infallibility to every single hiring decision (calling) that some mid-level manager makes in "The Kingdom™". Could the person have made a different decision, called a different person, and still have been "inspired" to have the right person in that calling. Yes. Could there have been a dozen or a hundred other persons equally qualified that would also be "inspired" choices. Certainly.

    We all make decisions using limited understanding and seek reassurances for those decisions. Should I buy this house or that one? Should I tract on this street or the next one? Should I take this job or stay put? Should I move here or settle there? Should I marry this person or that one? Personally, I don't think God cares. He's up there basically saying, "Whatever, man. All roads lead to Rome. Just make it back here and don't be dick while doing so."


    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Why joke about people leaving the church?
    I actually don't care. If he stays or goes, I'll still love him!
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    Y'all hear that? We're using code names. --Evelle Snoats

  23. #1313

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Wuap, I am sorry if you feel sad. I hope to see you back.

    These discussions are interesting. I am convinced that we humans are naturally/genetically pre-disposed to idealogical extremes. Gray areas make us uncomfortable.

    "Scriptures are the word of God --> Everything in them literally happened"
    "Joseph Smith/Brigham Young were prophets --> God commanded polygamy and the priesthood ban."
    "This is God's church --> The prophet will never lead us astray."

    Or on the other hand:

    "JS took a 14-yr-old bride --> He was a fraud about everything"
    "Seers are supposed to see the past/present/future but they missed Bishop --> They aren't really seers"
    "Some callings are clearly not inspired --> No callings are inspired"
    "Church leaders make mistakes --> Why listen to them about anything?"
    etc.

    I am convinced that real, enduring faith exists in between these two extremes. I also believe that it is a fragile and delicate thing. It can only survive with great effort and nurturing. It requires humility, optimism, and hope. It cannot abide cynicism. It also requires an ability or willingness to accept paradox and messiness; the willingness to deal with two contradictory thoughts. Exmos often mock this as "mental gymnastics". I just returned from a lecture by Terryl Givens (I think he is the greatest thinker right now in Mormonism). He gave a beautiful presentation on faith and reason and spoke of the struggle of negotiating the messy middle. He referred to "the appalling luxury of skepticism". Luxury indeed.

    So why bother? For me it is simple. When I have chosen to trust in God and believe in spite of the endless reasons to doubt, I have felt the undeniable love of God. That is my foundation.
    Well said.

    There has to be room for agency. I believe that means there has to be room for people in positions of leadership to abuse their power and commit despicable acts. If not, is there truly agency? As stated above, justice will never be fully satisfied in this life. The Church has an obligation to protect from these kind of acts as much as they can. This case appears to show that they may have had some serious flaws in their approach to this. Changes for the better should come as a result. This story tears at my heart. I had a daughter serve a mission. This hits home. I wish that we could undo the damage done here. I believe/hope that God will, eventually.

    I love that Wuap appears to care so much for the venerable that this cuts him to his core. I have had times in my life where I have thought "either God does not exist, or, if he does, he is an **hole." This is a natural response when we witness some of the crap that goes on in this world, especially when it is to someone we deeply love. I believe that when we get to see the big picture, when justice is served and God has his chance to extend his mercy to its full extent, I will be able to look at this and finally understand. For now I try to trust him and try not to do too many despicable things myself.
    One of the grandest benefits of the enlightenment was the realization that our moral sense must be based on the welfare of living individuals, not on their immortal souls. Honest and passionate folks can strongly disagree regarding spiritual matters, so it's imperative that we not allow such considerations to infringe on the real happiness of real people.

    Woot

    I believe religion has much inherent good and has born many good fruits.
    SU

  24. #1314

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    I am sure that they ("the brethren") actually believe it matters. Many/most of the members in the middle-level lay ministry likely believe the same thing too; namely, that God cares who is called to such and such a position in such and such a ward or stake or region or mission or temple. Like Lebowski said, it is nothing more than a statement of faith that the person believes that they made a good decision based on the available information. Fair enough. I'm happy to take the statement at face value.
    Which is why I originally asserted that there are only two options. I'm fairly confident that the FP and Q12 actually believe they receive confirmation for every one of these callings. There may not have been revelation from God, but they believe there was. There is great risk in assuming this process is infallible. I don't think we understand connections to the divine very well at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    However, I would caution against thinking that these declarations add a patina of infallibility to every single hiring decision (calling) that some mid-level manager makes in "The Kingdomô". Could the person have made a different decision, called a different person, and still have been "inspired" to have the right person in that calling. Yes. Could there have been a dozen or a hundred other persons equally qualified that would also be "inspired" choices. Certainly.
    Agreed. I don't think that necessarily is true of middle management, it's not practical for lay ministry to staff organizations by multi-interview waiting until God reveals His choice.

  25. #1315

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    Ugh...reading through this, I see why the Buddha said that metaphysical questions were a wasteful distraction. We have a young woman--make that, at least two young women--who were abused and potentially raped by a man in authority over them, with the organization at least trying to conceal it from public disclosure and possibly trying to smear the victim once it was revealed, and we're lost in the specifics of how God speaks to us, whether by the absence of a no or by a vision or by "it's not a bad idea"? Doesn't that seem a bit...academic, and in a sort of disgusting way?
    Wow this thread moves quickly. When I read this I had wanted to respond but didn't get to it until now. It reminded me of reading Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl. I had a similar reaction at first. How can he be discussing what he learned about psychology in the midst of the horror of that experience? Does that in any way minimize what happened?

    But once the initial shock and disgust has passed, (there is still perpetual shock and disgust, which I'm not dismissing), I think it's normal maybe natural for the human mind to try to find meaning in experience as it relates to us. Peterson would explain this as habitable order using the metaphor of a walled city that each of us has built around us. It is the current order in which we live that is made up of our knowledge and beliefs. It's the same walled city of the Buddha being protected from the suffering of life by his father. We do that for ourselves to keep the chaos of life from completely overwhelming us, our capacity for living in complexity is limited--but expanding. We create temporary order by putting building blocks of belief in place until we have the time and experience to reexamine and rebuild.

    Occasionally, our walls are assaulted by the chaos of the unknown or unexpected. This can shatter or at least weaken a belief construction. This then has to be addressed, and that part of the city needs to be strengthened or possibly torn down and rebuilt. New information has to be incorporated. It is normal during this process to seek guidance and even criticism of the previous construction for those that have similar walls. That's what communities are for, they bolster our resolve while we rebuild our walls and help us create a better city.

    The discussion here is just a natural consequence of a bit of really ugly chaos that has emerged. The proper way to deal with it is to confront it head on and see what can be learned from it.

    I can see how that can come across as unsympathetic.

  26. #1316
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    West of House
    Posts
    2,398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Which is why I originally asserted that there are only two options. I'm fairly confident that the FP and Q12 actually believe they receive confirmation for every one of these callings. There may not have been revelation from God, but they believe there was. There is great risk in assuming this process is infallible. I don't think we understand connections to the divine very well at all.
    Well, hmmm, I went back and read your original and perhaps I misread your intent. I'm on board with your "fallibility of our leaders" jargon, but only disagree specifically where you contend that "they had received inspiration that God did not send" (your first option). Of course, I don't believe that God personally called Bishop but that he fell from grace (your second option) as I've made my position clear that I don't believe God really gives a shit who serves in what capacity, specifically who fills these middle-level management positions - heck, even who the dang prophet is - any number of persons will be good because they are all just part of the machine, God is actually in charge (see 1 Samuel 10).

    With regard to "inspiration that God did not send", I fall back on the position that the person or persons that called Bishop to be MTC president made a decision based on the information that was available. (I'm operating under the assumption that the Church acts in good faith and doesn't specifically call sexual predators as mission presidents; mpfunk and ERCougar and BM and [...] may disagree.) The person or persons that extended Bishop that calling likely prayed about the decision and likely felt that it had divine imprimatur. Pretty much every other of the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of middle-managers that have been called to Church positions before and since were made in like manner.

    Do many of these staffing decisions work out? Yes. Do some not work out? Yes. In those cases, were these hiring managers receiving, as you state, "inspiration that God did not send"? I think you say "yes" to that question, but I just can't go there. I'm not going to second guess their decision. I'm not going to second guess their spiritual confirmation either (despite the fact that I really don't think God cares one way or the other). That is just water I'm not willing to wade into - I don't have the information, I didn't do the research, I don't have the data.

    In hindsight, this one was not a good fit and wuap and HFN have stated that some line - a Rubicon - has been crossed; ergo the Church lacks the spiritual authority that it claims (I'm summarizing, perhaps unfairly). OK, fine. I think you can take that position, but with it comes a lot of baggage other persons such as Lebowski and creekster have done a much better job of pointing out (specifically about maintaining free agency).

    Can I receive inspiration about a decision that involves and/or impacts another person (yes or no)? And does then that inspiration now bind the actions of that person (yes or no)? If the actions of that person nullify my inspiration in a gross and egregious manner, does that nullify my original inspired decision (yes or no)? [Yes. No. No.]

    You need not apply those questions to the Bishop example if you are uncomfortable. Apply it to any "inspired" decision you've ever made that involves or impacts another person. Maybe it was a person you were once married to, or a job you once held, or some other shit that hit the fan after making a decision that "felt right". It's messy and unfortunate. But despite that, as Lebowski says, you can still choose "to trust in God and believe in spite of the endless reasons to doubt". Keep the faith!
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    Y'all hear that? We're using code names. --Evelle Snoats

  27. #1317
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    The 208
    Posts
    9,179

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    I welcome all feedback, unwarranted or not.




    I am sure that they ("the brethren") actually believe it matters. Many/most of the members in the middle-level lay ministry likely believe the same thing too; namely, that God cares who is called to such and such a position in such and such a ward or stake or region or mission or temple. Like Lebowski said, it is nothing more than a statement of faith that the person believes that they made a good decision based on the available information. Fair enough. I'm happy to take the statement at face value.

    However, I would caution against thinking that these declarations add a patina of infallibility to every single hiring decision (calling) that some mid-level manager makes in "The Kingdomô". Could the person have made a different decision, called a different person, and still have been "inspired" to have the right person in that calling. Yes. Could there have been a dozen or a hundred other persons equally qualified that would also be "inspired" choices. Certainly.

    We all make decisions using limited understanding and seek reassurances for those decisions. Should I buy this house or that one? Should I tract on this street or the next one? Should I take this job or stay put? Should I move here or settle there? Should I marry this person or that one? Personally, I don't think God cares. He's up there basically saying, "Whatever, man. All roads lead to Rome. Just make it back here and don't be dick while doing so."




    I actually don't care. If he stays or goes, I'll still love him!
    A few years ago, in a stake I used to live in, Elder Holland came to reorganize the stake presidency. He said essentially the same thing as I've highlighted above, that there were quite a few people in the stake whom they could have called and would likely have done a great job. It seemed to me at the moment that he was trying to make the runners-up feel better. I don't remember him going into much, if any, detail about the selected SP being God's choice.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

  28. #1318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Well, hmmm, I went back and read your original and perhaps I misread your intent. I'm on board with your "fallibility of our leaders" jargon, but only disagree specifically where you contend that "they had received inspiration that God did not send" (your first option). Of course, I don't believe that God personally called Bishop but that he fell from grace (your second option) as I've made my position clear that I don't believe God really gives a shit who serves in what capacity, specifically who fills these middle-level management positions - heck, even who the dang prophet is - any number of persons will be good because they are all just part of the machine, God is actually in charge (see 1 Samuel 10).

    With regard to "inspiration that God did not send", I fall back on the position that the person or persons that called Bishop to be MTC president made a decision based on the information that was available. (I'm operating under the assumption that the Church acts in good faith and doesn't specifically call sexual predators as mission presidents; mpfunk and ERCougar and BM and [...] may disagree.) The person or persons that extended Bishop that calling likely prayed about the decision and likely felt that it had divine imprimatur. Pretty much every other of the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of middle-managers that have been called to Church positions before and since were made in like manner.

    Do many of these staffing decisions work out? Yes. Do some not work out? Yes. In those cases, were these hiring managers receiving, as you state, "inspiration that God did not send"? I think you say "yes" to that question, but I just can't go there. I'm not going to second guess their decision. I'm not going to second guess their spiritual confirmation either (despite the fact that I really don't think God cares one way or the other). That is just water I'm not willing to wade into - I don't have the information, I didn't do the research, I don't have the data.

    In hindsight, this one was not a good fit and wuap and HFN have stated that some line - a Rubicon - has been crossed; ergo the Church lacks the spiritual authority that it claims (I'm summarizing, perhaps unfairly). OK, fine. I think you can take that position, but with it comes a lot of baggage other persons such as Lebowski and creekster have done a much better job of pointing out (specifically about maintaining free agency).

    Can I receive inspiration about a decision that involves and/or impacts another person (yes or no)? And does then that inspiration now bind the actions of that person (yes or no)? If the actions of that person nullify my inspiration in a gross and egregious manner, does that nullify my original inspired decision (yes or no)? [Yes. No. No.]

    You need not apply those questions to the Bishop example if you are uncomfortable. Apply it to any "inspired" decision you've ever made that involves or impacts another person. Maybe it was a person you were once married to, or a job you once held, or some other shit that hit the fan after making a decision that "felt right". It's messy and unfortunate. But despite that, as Lebowski says, you can still choose "to trust in God and believe in spite of the endless reasons to doubt". Keep the faith!
    We're not much different here, I was trying to be concise in my language, but it came out looser than intended. My first option was meant to be that because of fallibility, the FP/Q12 can at times feel they have received confirmation, they certainly assert such, but God never actually sent it in a specific case. So they act accordingly. This can easily be extended to "most of the time", but "all of the time" is more problematic for me.

    My beliefs fluctuate constantly, but one I settle on quite regularly is that if a person can potentially be successful in a calling, God can and does give affirmation for the appointment. He may will it, even if he has foreseen despicable behavior. Which I think you allude to above. God can not refuse a calling for one who has not yet committed the action, to do so would be unjust and possibly would unravel the plan. This case is more difficult because of the previous established pattern of behavior. The calling may also be the only path by which redemption of that individual is eternally possible. I just really hate to default to the "it will be made right in the afterlife" argument, even though at times I believe that it has merit. The injustice in the world can be difficult to shoulder without occasionally leaning on that crutch. Furthering the argument, agency must be honored in all cases, or God would cease to be God as His honor would be betrayed. He has to act as if He cannot see the future. But I'm not sure I have this fleshed out enough to resist criticism. So I contend with it from time to time. There are enough thoughtful and critical people that participate here that it is worth making my internal contention public. Thank you for the interaction.

  29. #1319
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    West of House
    Posts
    2,398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    A few years ago, in a stake I used to live in, Elder Holland came to reorganize the stake presidency. He said essentially the same thing as I've highlighted above, that there were quite a few people in the stake whom they could have called and would likely have done a great job. It seemed to me at the moment that he was trying to make the runners-up feel better. I don't remember him going into much, if any, detail about the selected SP being God's choice.
    I would also stipulate that the same line of reasoning can extend to cover the Church for its historic nepotistic practices of hiring (er... calling) multiple persons within the same family tree. It's not that there aren't other persons that couldn't do as good or better job, but sometimes the Church plays it safe and hires what it knows and can safely vouch for. But that doesn't mean these calling can't also be "inspired" IMHO. That being said, I hope those days can be put in the rear view mirror. How many other DFUs are out there just waiting to be discovered?!
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    Y'all hear that? We're using code names. --Evelle Snoats

  30. #1320
    Local Character clackamascoug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Frog Pond Grange
    Posts
    6,161

    Default

    Since we're playing "Guess the will of The Lord" I'll throw out a "what if" for consideration.... and it's mono dimensional for a change.

    What if it was the will of the Lord to have things play out as they have? The Bishop/Female scenario has certainly brought this particular issue to the forefront of the LDS mind. Through discussions like this and on hundreds of other LDS centric sites this topic had been dissected inside out, and right about now the amount of good coming from this topic in the mind and understanding of the LDS culture is fast becoming a net positive for the good that the discussion has had. Hundreds of thousands of people (estimated) have put fingers to key board and expressed their feelings about a myriad of topic that come under the influence of this blunder. People are questioning the Providential nature of the Church, people are coming to an understanding that The Church "needs to do better" in this area of crisis handling. In fact, people are "growing up" and opening their minds in a more healthy relationship with the Church whereas 30 years ago people were more like blind sheep not even considering the Church as a fallible entity.

    The blinders are off... and it's a new era in the Church. This is a good thing.

    Thanks President Bishop... in you're own screwed up way you've helped the general body of the Saints come to a better understand of the real world.
    Last edited by clackamascoug; 04-07-2018 at 01:51 AM.

    When poet puts pen to paper imagination breathes life, finding hearth and home.
    -Mid Summer's Night Dream


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •