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  • Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
    He maintains that he doesn't remember the rape, but he does remember her, and someone who lived with him with a boob job. But, doesn't he remember that he groomed her? Also, does Utah use preponderance of evidence in civil suits like this might be, or is it a reasonable doubt standard?

    Her motivation must be considered, certainly, by a grand jury.
    Hold on, I think the boob job girl was separate from the girl that lived with him. That was the back rub girl. There was also the girl from the hot tub (but it wasn't in Wyoming, it was in Utah) and the girl with the skimpy swimming suit. There was also the other MTC girl who had a history of abuse.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by falafel View Post
      Hold on, I think the boob job girl was separate from the girl that lived with him. That was the back rub girl. There was also the girl from the hot tub (but it wasn't in Wyoming, it was in Utah) and the girl with the skimpy swimming suit. There was also the other MTC girl who had a history of abuse.
      Good heavens, didn't people read the transcript?
      Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

      For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

      Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
        I don't think the church is denying that. But Asay is dead. No way to confirm.
        All they said is there was no record of an interview with Asay. I don't see a problem with that part of the statement. If they said affirmatively the interview did not occur that would be a potential problem. The Church PR isn't sloppy, it was worded that way for a reason. Just like the former member and brief missionary service was included in there for a reason.
        As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
        --Kendrick Lamar

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
          His admissions with what he did to her are not clear. His admissions that he has sexually assaulted women are clear. His admissions that he groomed her are clear.
          but her motivation with respect to the specific accusations against him matter.
          Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
            All they said is there was no record of an interview with Asay. I don't see a problem with that part of the statement. If they said affirmatively the interview did not occur that would be a potential problem. The Church PR isn't sloppy, it was worded that way for a reason. Just like the former member and brief missionary service was included in there for a reason.
            You know, the "former member" and "brief missionary service" bits could actually serve to corroborate her story. Seems like evidence that the story is legitimate. It would be very hard for someone who was raped by the MTC president to stay on a mission and remain a member.
            Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

            "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

            GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Green Monstah View Post
              From the "mere speculation" file:

              I found it odd that in the same MTC group, he was having personal, discussions with two sex abuse victims who were also in the same group (were they companions)?

              I wonder if he reviewed mission applications for mention of past sexual abuse and used that info for grooming purposes.
              that is fucking disturbing
              Dyslexics are teople poo...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by old_gregg View Post
                but her motivation with respect to the specific accusations against him matter.
                The admissions that he made relative to her that he groomed her are enough to establish that he should be excommunicated, if the if the no tolerance for abuse policy is to be believed. If he is an MTC President and he had any sexual contact with her (consensual or not) or groomed her for sexual contact, he has violated his position of trust and he should be ex-communicated.

                Originally posted by falafel View Post
                You know, the "former member" and "brief missionary service" bits could actually serve to corroborate her story. Seems like evidence that the story is legitimate. It would be very hard for someone who was raped by the MTC president to stay on a mission and remain a member.
                They don't corroborate or take away from her story. However, to many faithful church members it gives the wiggle room that this is just an angry apostate trying to get back at the church.
                As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
                --Kendrick Lamar

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
                  The admissions that he made relative to her that he groomed her are enough to establish that he should be excommunicated, if the if the no tolerance for abuse policy is to be believed. If he is an MTC President and he had any sexual contact with her (consensual or not) or groomed her for sexual contact, he has violated his position of trust and he should be ex-communicated.
                  sexual contact is very different from attempted rape in both church discipline and legal contexts. her motivation matters.
                  Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by old_gregg View Post
                    sexual contact is very different from attempted rape in both church discipline and legal contexts. her motivation matters.
                    For someone in a position of trust like a Missionary President, MTC President, Bishop, etc., attempted rape or grooming should both result in excommunication. Obviously, attempted rape is worse but the final result should be the same. You are a Bishop and you use your position of trust to groom a woman for sexual contact, you should be excommunicated. The admission that as the MTC President he groomed 21 year old women that should be enough to excommunicate the guy. If it isn't, the church does not have a no tolerance for abuse policy like they claim.

                    Obviously, in a legal context it matters substantially if the behavior was grooming for sexual contact or attempted rape.
                    As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
                    --Kendrick Lamar

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
                      For someone in a position of trust like a Missionary President, MTC President, Bishop, etc., attempted rape or grooming should both result in excommunication. Obviously, attempted rape is worse but the final result should be the same. You are a Bishop and you use your position of trust to groom a woman for sexual contact, you should be excommunicated. The admission that as the MTC President he groomed 21 year old women that should be enough to excommunicate the guy. If it isn't, the church does not have a no tolerance for abuse policy like they claim.

                      Obviously, in a legal context it matters substantially if the behavior was grooming for sexual contact or attempted rape.
                      context never hurts. was what the press release said false or misleading? and keep in mind that this is a redacted transcript from one party that has a certain interest in the outcome of the dispute that hasn’t been subject to review or rebuttal by the person against whom it is leveling some extremely serious accusations. whether or not her interest is right doesn’t affect that she has an interest. starting from the premise that everything she says happened exactly how she says it did is wrong, no matter creepy and probably guilty the guy is.
                      Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SteelBlue View Post
                        Absolutely. That was brutal to read. It was also a course in predator 101.

                        He is fluent in the language of sincere Mormon faith and has used it to keep secret his evil for a lifetime. That whole interview read to me like a cornered man searching for the angle that would appease her. He cycled through so many angles it was hard to keep track. His own personal history of molestation (I think he said that), no? Ok so how about addiction? No. Well, the wife didn't put out. Nope. Um, there are these compulsions... Nope. Evil spirits that had to be cast out? Nope. I'm a p.o.s. but think of my family? Nope.

                        Strangely, the one angle he seemed to believe he'd found was shared faith in the gospel and of repentance. He seemed to return to that well often and she humored him with those excuses more often than any others. She wanted to hear remorse and when he figured that out, he kept trying to express what sounded like sincere remorse. But, strangely, he was never able to do this without qualifying statements.

                        He wraps the interview by losing confidence in the repentance angle he was working and he returns again to others he'd worked previously. The "but think of my family" angle. Tries the "think of the damaged testimonies" angle and sensing failure, moves to a "think of the legal expenses" angle. My jaw dropped at that point because he's quite smooth as he cycles through this shit but this was an epic fail. I don't know what he thought he saw or heard from this woman that made him believe money was of interest to her. It was a horrible read on her motivations and I think he realizes it, but too late. He finishes with the manipulative "get your answer from the Lord." That was his last shot and he knew it. Crazy thing is, 2016 or earlier and it probably would've worked.
                        This is a great take on the interview.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by old_gregg View Post
                          context never hurts. was what the press release said false or misleading? and keep in mind that this is a redacted transcript from one party that has a certain interest in the outcome of the dispute that hasn’t been subject to review or rebuttal by the person against whom it is leveling some extremely serious accusations. whether or not her interest is right doesn’t affect that she has an interest. starting from the premise that everything she says happened exactly how she says it did is wrong, no matter creepy and probably guilty the guy is.
                          I think we agree that the inclusion of those is laying the foundation for the woman being a bitter apostate with an agenda. We disagree about whether or not it was appropriate to lay that foundation in the press release about a MTC President that admitted he used his position of power to groom women for sexual contact.
                          As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
                          --Kendrick Lamar

                          Comment


                          • Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

                            Originally posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
                            I think we agree that the inclusion of those is laying the foundation for the woman being a bitter apostate with an agenda. We disagree about whether or not it was appropriate to lay that foundation in the press release about a MTC President that admitted he used his position of power to groom women for sexual contact.
                            <deleted>
                            Last edited by Jeff Lebowski; 03-20-2018, 04:36 PM.
                            "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                            "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                            "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                              <deleted>
                              I realize that I am cynical, but I don't think I"m being cynical in this instance. The Church's PR is careful. Very careful. The need to put that she was briefly a missionary is really odd. The former member, a little bit less odd. The details were included for a reason.
                              As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
                              --Kendrick Lamar

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
                                I realize that I am cynical, but I don't think I"m being cynical in this instance. The Church's PR is careful. Very careful. The need to put that she was briefly a missionary is really odd. The former member, a little bit less odd. The details were included for a reason.
                                ..<deleted>..
                                Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

                                "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

                                GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

                                Comment

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