President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[Commando]

I’m glad Bears Ears and Escalante are being reduced in size. Kudos to Trump on that move.


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Why's that?

[Applejack]

Why's that?

Yeah, why?

[Northwestcoug]

I want an answer also!

Is it just a response to federal government overreach?

[Eddie]

Why's that?

I can't answer for Moliere - but I can for me.

I believe that when you are talking about a parcel of land as large as both Grande Staircase and Bears Ears, it shouldn't necessarily be up to one person using a legal loophole of an act that was initially created to protect archeological sites.

As much as I dislike Rob Bishop - the approach he was taking prior to Obama stepping in and proclaiming Bears Ears a monument was the right one. He was bringing in people from the community, listening to conservation organizations, local elected officials, the tribes, ranchers and businesses, etc. He was in the process of identifying current and potential uses for the area with input form the above, identifying who would be effected by changes in use, etc. And the proposal he was working on revolved around trying to make reasonable decisions that would protect the land but also allow for its appropriate use - depending on the level of protection the various areas needed.

The reality was that he was working on a compromise that didn't really make anyone completely happy - which typically (in situations like this) is pretty good evidence that it is what is fair and right.

After the announcement, Mike Leavitt mentioned Grand Staircase being created when he was governor. He described it as a last minute action done without any discussion with locals and without consideration as to local impact.

Sometimes a quick action needs to be taken to protect vulnerable sites. That's what the antiquities act was created for.

Other times there are valid differences of opinion as to the uses of land and varying levels of use and protection. In those instances - it's appropriate for that debate to take place and for the decisions to be made via legislative process with the opportunity for all to give input and not via executive order without that discussion taking place.

The biggest complaints about Bishop's approach was that it was taking too long. But the reality is that nothing was changing - we weren't losing land to strip mining or oil drilling while he twiddled his thumbs and stalled the process. The land had some protections before the monument was made. There wasn't really a need to rush in like Obama did and brush the process aside.

[snowcat]

Rep. Chris Stewart proposes national park in Grand Staircase-Escalante

Rep. Chris Stewart, R-Utah, plans to introduce legislation Tuesday to create a new national park in a piece of the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument.

The proposed Escalante Canyons National Park comes on the heels of President Donald Trump dramatically down-sizing the 1.9 million-acre monument on Monday.

“We feel that’s a win-win. You love tourism? So do I,” he told the Deseret News. “People will come for a national park, but many of them won’t come for a monument.”

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...escalante.html

[Uncle Ted]

Yeah, why?

Yeah... Utah is only 66.5% federally owned. Why isn't it 100%? The federal government displaced the Indians. They could do the same for Utahns.

[Applejack]

Yeah... Utah is only 66.5% federally owned. Why isn't it 100%? The federal government displaced the Indians. They could do the same for Utahns.

I thought these were already (and still) Federal Lands? Does this move by Trump give more land to the state?

Or was this just another a "Trump-lover-masked-as-libertarian" comment?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I have a lot of relatives in Southern Utah and they are thrilled beyond words.

[Commando]

I'm not sure I understand any side of the issue- just don't trust Trump. If I'm to believe his opposition, this land will be jam-packed with oil rigs and condos before you know it. What is the downside to having the land be protected?

[Uncle Ted]

I thought these were already (and still) Federal Lands? Does this move by Trump give more land to the state?

Or was this just another a "Trump-lover-masked-as-libertarian" comment?

I am guessing that the difference between BLM land and national monument land is things like cattle grazing and other things. Growing up in a rural area I would go and shot the hell out of jack rabbits, etc. on BLM land any time I wanted to. You can't do that on national forest land with the exception of hunting season or in a designated area. No one gave a rat's ass if we did it on BLM land.

We need more public land in Texas. Less than 2% of Texas is public lands and that is mostly Big Bend National Park. The United States should invade Mexico and get us some public land.

[Topper]

I am guessing that the difference between BLM land and national monument land is things like cattle grazing and other things. Growing up in a rural area I would go and shot the hell out of jack rabbits, etc. on BLM land any time I wanted to. You can't do that on national forest land with the exception of hunting season or in a designated area. No one gave a rat's ass if we did it on BLM land.

We need more public land in Texas. Less than 2% of Texas is public lands and that is mostly Big Bend National Park. The United States should invade Mexican and get us some public land.

Nevada is mostly public land of one sort or another. 84.9% according to the article linked below. More than 58.6 Million acres of the 70 Million acres located in Nevada.

Reid was trying to free up a lot of that land.

As I understand it, we have (1) BLM land, (2) Forestry land or Parks, (3) Monument land, with descending rights of use, and (4) BIA land, (5) Bureau of Reclamation land, (6) DoD land, (7) DOE land with almost no rights for many of these.

The public lands for use include Fish and Wildlife, Forestry and National Parks.



https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/h...ent-in-nevada/

[Moliere]

Why's that?

For most of the reasons stated by Eddie. I think Obama (and Clinton) abused the powers in the Antiquities Act and such large monuments should be designated by Congress, after thorough review and debate, not with the swipe of a pen from one person.

I also think the left is fear mongering when they talk about the industrialization of those areas.

Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems Trump reduces the national monument areas down to a more reasonable size, which I applaud.


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[Applejack]

For most of the reasons stated by Eddie. I think Obama (and Clinton) abused the powers in the Antiquities Act and such large monuments should be designated by Congress, after thorough review and debate, not with the swipe of a pen from one person.

I also think the left is fear mongering when they talk about the industrialization of those areas.

Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems Trump reduces the national monument areas down to a more reasonable size, which I applaud.


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I'm still confused why people like this, other than Trump-is-sticking-it-to-the-elites! There are Ted's arguments [once he realized that this was still federal land], like shooting rabbits and grazing: they don't move the needle for me. Southern Utah is a TERRIBLE place to be raising livestock. No comment about removing landmark distinction to enable kids to shoot rabbits.

I guess there is something to the anti-presidential power argument (Moliere), but it is hard to see how letting Trump alone sign these out of existence solves that problem. Basically, this appears to weaken protection of these federal lands. #KeepUtahBeautifulNotLikeTexas

[Eddie]

I'm still confused why people like this, other than Trump-is-sticking-it-to-the-elites! There are Ted's arguments [once he realized that this was still federal land], like shooting rabbits and grazing: they don't move the needle for me. Southern Utah is a TERRIBLE place to be raising livestock. No comment about removing landmark distinction to enable kids to shoot rabbits.

I guess there is something to the anti-presidential power argument (Moliere), but it is hard to see how letting Trump alone sign these out of existence solves that problem. Basically, this appears to weaken protection of these federal lands. #KeepUtahBeautifulNotLikeTexas

Ted's brief description regarding various protections and uses depending on designation is exactly what this is all about.

You don't care about raising livestock in Southern Utah - but there are ranchers there who would prefer not to have to start looking to relocate or for a new career. There are additional permits and requirements for a lot of the activities that happen there. One of the reasons the tribes have supported the monument is because they were told they could continue to gather firewood and various other plants and hold traditional ceremonies there. That's great - if you trust the government to not change their mind.

Speaking with one of the locals - there was concern about even things as simple as water and water rights. Apparently the monument designation impacts their ability to further develop mountain wells that provide potable water for the area and the pipes that get them to the cities.

In all of this, I go back to the idea that when decisions are being made regarding this much land - it's much better to have it go through the legislative process where people have the opportunity to be heard and debate to take place rather than have one person with their pen making all of the decisions.

It's funny to me that the people filing lawsuits now against Trump's actions - stating that they don't believe the antiquities act gives him that authority and he is over-reaching - had no problem with Obama essentially doing the same thing. They are right, of course. Trump shouldn't have that much authority. And Obama shouldn't have had it before him.

[Moliere]

I'm still confused why people like this, other than Trump-is-sticking-it-to-the-elites! There are Ted's arguments [once he realized that this was still federal land], like shooting rabbits and grazing: they don't move the needle for me. Southern Utah is a TERRIBLE place to be raising livestock. No comment about removing landmark distinction to enable kids to shoot rabbits.

I guess there is something to the anti-presidential power argument (Moliere), but it is hard to see how letting Trump alone sign these out of existence solves that problem. Basically, this appears to weaken protection of these federal lands. #KeepUtahBeautifulNotLikeTexas

One boss I had when I was in college was big on going down to Escalante. He was ticked when Clinton did what he did, mostly because it drew attention to a remote area that was never visited by anyone. The monument designation is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. Prior to bears ears being designated I bet very few people even knew about it. Now, a lot of people suddenly have internet in visiting since it’s been formally designated. Sometimes just letting it be is the best answer, but maybe I’m the age of the internet that argument loses some weight since people can more easily find out information on remote, less visited gems.


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