President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[Commando]

You don't know me.. My skin is brown, you big dummy.

The palms of your hands are brown?

[Commando]

Maybe it isn't jail. Maybe they're just being provided food and housing in a location specifically provided for people who don't have the legal right to be in the country. They should be allowed to leave to return to their country of origin whenever they like!

(I kid...I kid...)

Ha- that seems to be the function of infinite detention-- to squeeze the life out of people. If I may share, I had a particularly compelling asylum case where a young man who was deported (DACA-age kid who lived here his whole life and did some dumb shit and got deported for getting a DUI), was found in the wrong bar in Mexico with the wrong tattoo, mistaken for a rival cartel member, and was kidnapped, beaten and raped. Good evidence, fully vetted story. The immigration judge denied bond on jurisdictional issues while his wife and kids languished at home. So there he was, sitting in detention for months upon months. I appealed the bond decision and was confident of a win to get him home while his asylum case was pending. After about eight months in detention sitting on ice while the appeal was pending, he decided he'd try his luck in another country-- maybe Canada would take him-- to raise his family. So I got a letter from the court that I'd been dismissed as counsel, he withdrew his asylum application, and he was instantly removed. So no- these facilities aren't exactly country clubs. They are fully treated like convicts, down to the scrubs and the crocs on their feet.

[creekster]

Ha- that seems to be the function of infinite detention-- to squeeze the life out of people. If I may share, I had a particularly compelling asylum case where a young man who was deported (DACA-age kid who lived here his whole life and did some dumb shit and got deported for getting a DUI), was found in the wrong bar in Mexico with the wrong tattoo, mistaken for a rival cartel member, and was kidnapped, beaten and raped. Good evidence, fully vetted story. The immigration judge denied bond on jurisdictional issues while his wife and kids languished at home. So there he was, sitting in detention for months upon months. I appealed the bond decision and was confident of a win to get him home while his asylum case was pending. After about eight months in detention sitting on ice while the appeal was pending, he decided he'd try his luck in another country-- maybe Canada would take him-- to raise his family. So I got a letter from the court that I'd been dismissed as counsel, he withdrew his asylum application, and he was instantly removed. So no- these facilities aren't exactly country clubs. They are fully treated like convicts, down to the scrubs and the crocs on their feet.

Any given specific instance notwithstanding, they shouldn't be like country clubs, right? That would be just as bad a policy, in terms of a sensible immigration approach, as the abuses you are complaining of now.

[Maximus]

Any given specific instance notwithstanding, they shouldn't be like country clubs, right? That would be just as bad a policy, in terms of a sensible immigration approach, as the abuses you are complaining of now.

or maybe we shouldnt be holding indefinitely while waiting for a month long trial process. Was he a danger to society?

[Commando]

Any given specific instance notwithstanding, they shouldn't be like country clubs, right? That would be just as bad a policy, in terms of a sensible immigration approach, as the abuses you are complaining of now.

..

:|

[Commando]

or maybe we shouldnt be holding indefinitely while waiting for a month long trial process. Was he a danger to society?

Nope. The only jurisdictional issue was whether 'arriving aliens' (those presenting themselves at the border or caught entering) in 'withholding only' proceedings were bondable by an immigration judge. He would have gotten a bond if the immigration judge had found she had jurisdiction.

[cowboy]

Nope. The only jurisdictional issue was whether 'arriving aliens' (those presenting themselves at the border or caught entering) in 'withholding only' proceedings were bondable by an immigration judge. He would have gotten a bond if the immigration judge had found she had jurisdiction.

Changing course a bit, what has been done to ensure that the children actually are members of the family and not being trafficked? Also, how big is the problem of people sending kids by themselves? You know my position on immigration, so take the question at face value. I'm honestly curious, because either of those situations are bad news and we need some sort of mechanism to prohibit them from occurring.

(As an aside, I've often thought that if I had absolute power to do one thing in this world it would be to stop child trafficking. I can't think of a more heinous act.)

[BlueK]

Those legislators could've and should've told Trump to go to hell and gone ahead with their compromise. He wants to put it on Congress to do something, so do it. See if he vetoes it now. If he does, see about getting enough votes to make it so he can't veto it. Right no, Congress has a unique opportunity. A LOT of people are pissed about the border situation and families being separated. Come up with a good compromise neither side loves but that both can accept, and it'll be backed by the people. Come election time in a couple of months, no one wants to be the guy who said screw kids and screw families. Take a risk. Quit relying on the moron in the Whitehouse to take action.

I agree 100%. But they won't because they're terrified to just do their job, which many of them are about to lose in November.

[Commando]

Changing course a bit, what has been done to ensure that the children actually are members of the family and not being trafficked? Also, how big is the problem of people sending kids by themselves? You know my position on immigration, so take the question at face value. I'm honestly curious, because either of those situations are bad news and we need some sort of mechanism to prohibit them from occurring.

(As an aside, I've often thought that if I had absolute power to do one thing in this world it would be to stop child trafficking. I can't think of a more heinous act.)

Well... there is a basic screening that I believe happens, but I honestly think that's overstated in this context. Kids traveling in a fake family unit on foot in the desert as an efficient means to get them to the U.S. for slavery? I don't think that's where your prime suspects are. I have also heard reports from colleagues who assist folks apply w CBP at the border that kids have been separated from parents under this guise even when they are fully papered up-- asylum applications and statements in hand, birth certificates w certified English translations, etc.

As far as "sending" kids by themselves.... I have had personal conversations with many unaccompanied minors from Central America and most of them, when you ask where there dad is will tell you horrible stories about how he was killed, or how mom and dad died, I live with my grandparents because I had nobody, I have cousins here and decided to try to make it with some help from my tio, the gangs told me they would kill me if I didn't join so I left, etc. Now a lot of these are 'economic refugees' which isn't a ground for asylum. But as unaccompanied minors from Central America they can get lawful status under a different ground and process altogether. It's a major concern obviously, but I don't know that resources are just getting slammed with these kids. There was a surge in 2013 but that's calmed down a lot.

[BlueK]

wheres your data youre making the claim. Not my job. Your evidence is a quote from trump admin.

Maybe it's part of the 1% of what Trump says that isn't a lie.

[BlueK]

It's both. If you'll allow me to stand on a soapbox for a minute, I'll opine.

We have relied on immigrants, legal or not, to fill manual labor positions for nearly two centuries. Ireland, China, Mexico, etc., have all seen their people leave for the US to work in the mines, railroads, factories, and fields. Subsequent generations climbed the economic ladder, and seeing immigrants realize the American Dream is what encouraged people from other countries to immigrate. Along the way, America attracted some of the best and brightest from every country and became the world's largest economy. While the inter-generational upward economic mobility of some ethnicities has exceeded that of others, and it has slowed in the past half century, it still exists within all immigrant groups.

Now it's nearly impossible to get here from Eastern Europe (hyperbole, but it is more difficult that coming from Mexico), and unions, blue collar republicans, and 'Merica Morons insist that immigrants "take our jobs" (not true, but another argument for another post), so it is difficult and legally very risky to hire Mexicans to as laborers as we traditionally have. The result is a very predictable labor shortage.

Pelagius can correct me, but I think this poses a bigger economic threat than any trade war. We deal with labor shortages in the long run with technology and innovation. Agriculture is a perfect example; technological advances have helped farmers to produce exponentially more food per unit of labor than even 15 years ago. In the short run, though, production lags demand, wages increase, and inflation follows. Given the amount of liquidity the Fed has dumped into the economy over the last decade, this is a recipe for disaster.

We've seen over and over that the market is bigger than any entity or even country's ability to move it. Soros showed it, LTCM showed it, and quantitative easing showed it. When a market chooses a direction, nothing can stop it. The market for money (borrowing) is no exception. The only thing that has kept inflation in check up until now has been a low velocity economy where investment and borrowing have been somewhat conservative. If companies and individuals regain confidence to invest in expansion and durable goods, the labor market will be strained - which is what we're starting to see. Then inflation takes off, the Fed raises interest rates rise, a recession follows, rinse, repeat. This is the typical Keynesian boom and bust cycle that Hayek predicted (not taking sides, just saying it is a predictable cycle), except this time the tremendous amount of fuel that the Fed has poured into the economy with quantitative easing has the potential to make the rate hikes and subsequent recession extreme.

One thing that can keep inflation in check is productivity. If we are producing enough stuff to absorb all the dollars the Fed has dropped into the economy, then inflation stays manageable even as velocity (borrowing and spending) increases. This brings us back to labor. We have to grow our workforce in the short-term to increase productivity. It's a common misconception that we are at full employment, but over 5% of the male population between 24 and 54 are able to work and choose not to, according to the BLS. So, to make up for the lazy losers that just don't want a job, we need immigrants who want to come here and make their lives better. It makes the economy better, it makes the country better, and it makes lives better. Without them, particularly with an aging population, we will have labor shortages and inflation and interest rates that haven't been seen since the '80's.

The End.

PS - This discussion reminds me scared I get when I listen to people talk about subjects like this and realize they have the right to vote.

Keep posting. You're one of the best this site has.

[Uncle Ted]

that 2,000 out of 12,000 was made up by trump admin with zero evidence.

wheres your data youre making the claim. Not my job. Your evidence is a quote from trump admin.

I am making it your job by calling it for what it is: pure bullsh*t. I think you are throwing out pure sh*t with no data to back it. As you would say, "zero evidence" in your part. I am calling your bullsh*t so prove me wrong.

I get my figure from Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen's white house briefing... https://www.c-span.org/video/?447252...gration-policy Now if she was lying about this figure don't you think the press would have said something by now? I usually back up all the sh*t I post around here with the links where I get the data from. You do the same. Post the link that backs your claim or STFU.

From the transcript:

Kirstjen Nielsen
So I want to be clear on a couple other things. The vast majority — vast, vast majority — of children who are in the care of HHS right now — 10,000 of the 12,000 — were sent here alone by their parents. That’s when they were separated. So somehow, we’ve conflated everything.But there’s two separate issues. Ten thousand of those currently in custody were sent by their parents, with strangers, to undertake a completely dangerous and deadly travel alone. We now care for them. We have high standards. We give them meals. We give them education. We give them medical care.

There's my data now where is yours? What proof do you have that shows the HHS is lying about this figure?

[Maximus]

I am making it your job by calling it for what it is: pure bullsh*t. I think you are throwing out pure sh*t with no data to back it. As you would say, "zero evidence" in your part. I am calling your bullsh*t so prove me wrong.

I get my figure from Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen's white house briefing... https://www.c-span.org/video/?447252...gration-policy Now if she was lying about this figure don't you think the press would have said something by now? I usually back up all the sh*t I post around here with the links where I get the data from. You do the same. Post the link that backs your claim or STFU.

From the transcript:


There's my data now where is yours? What proof do you have that shows the HHS is lying about this figure?

as I said, your data is a quote. they didnt provide evidence.

[Uncle Ted]

as I said, your data is a quote. they didnt provide evidence.

The figure comes straight from the HHS... If you think the Secretary is throwing out sh*t data from her department for the hell of it (thinking the press wouldn't fact check it) then you are really dumb.

[creekster]

as I said, your data is a quote. they didnt provide evidence.

Yes, that is evidence. She is in charge of that program and is in a position to provide that information. You might not think she is credible, but all you have is your opinion, which is an implication of bias but nothing else. If you want to claim she is lying you have the burden of proof.