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Thread: President Trump: Making America Great Again...

  1. #5791
    Explosivo Commando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I’m glad Bears Ears and Escalante are being reduced in size. Kudos to Trump on that move.


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    Why's that?
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  2. #5792

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Why's that?
    Yeah, why?

  3. #5793

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    I want an answer also!

    Is it just a response to federal government overreach?

  4. #5794
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Why's that?
    I can't answer for Moliere - but I can for me.

    I believe that when you are talking about a parcel of land as large as both Grande Staircase and Bears Ears, it shouldn't necessarily be up to one person using a legal loophole of an act that was initially created to protect archeological sites.

    As much as I dislike Rob Bishop - the approach he was taking prior to Obama stepping in and proclaiming Bears Ears a monument was the right one. He was bringing in people from the community, listening to conservation organizations, local elected officials, the tribes, ranchers and businesses, etc. He was in the process of identifying current and potential uses for the area with input form the above, identifying who would be effected by changes in use, etc. And the proposal he was working on revolved around trying to make reasonable decisions that would protect the land but also allow for its appropriate use - depending on the level of protection the various areas needed.

    The reality was that he was working on a compromise that didn't really make anyone completely happy - which typically (in situations like this) is pretty good evidence that it is what is fair and right.

    After the announcement, Mike Leavitt mentioned Grand Staircase being created when he was governor. He described it as a last minute action done without any discussion with locals and without consideration as to local impact.

    Sometimes a quick action needs to be taken to protect vulnerable sites. That's what the antiquities act was created for.

    Other times there are valid differences of opinion as to the uses of land and varying levels of use and protection. In those instances - it's appropriate for that debate to take place and for the decisions to be made via legislative process with the opportunity for all to give input and not via executive order without that discussion taking place.

    The biggest complaints about Bishop's approach was that it was taking too long. But the reality is that nothing was changing - we weren't losing land to strip mining or oil drilling while he twiddled his thumbs and stalled the process. The land had some protections before the monument was made. There wasn't really a need to rush in like Obama did and brush the process aside.

  5. #5795

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    Rep. Chris Stewart proposes national park in Grand Staircase-Escalante

    Rep. Chris Stewart, R-Utah, plans to introduce legislation Tuesday to create a new national park in a piece of the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument.

    The proposed Escalante Canyons National Park comes on the heels of President Donald Trump dramatically down-sizing the 1.9 million-acre monument on Monday.

    “We feel that’s a win-win. You love tourism? So do I,” he told the Deseret News. “People will come for a national park, but many of them won’t come for a monument.”
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...escalante.html
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  6. #5796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Yeah, why?
    Yeah... Utah is only 66.5% federally owned. Why isn't it 100%? The federal government displaced the Indians. They could do the same for Utahns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Yeah... Utah is only 66.5% federally owned. Why isn't it 100%? The federal government displaced the Indians. They could do the same for Utahns.
    I thought these were already (and still) Federal Lands? Does this move by Trump give more land to the state?

    Or was this just another a "Trump-lover-masked-as-libertarian" comment?

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    I have a lot of relatives in Southern Utah and they are thrilled beyond words.
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    I'm not sure I understand any side of the issue- just don't trust Trump. If I'm to believe his opposition, this land will be jam-packed with oil rigs and condos before you know it. What is the downside to having the land be protected?
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  10. #5800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I thought these were already (and still) Federal Lands? Does this move by Trump give more land to the state?

    Or was this just another a "Trump-lover-masked-as-libertarian" comment?
    I am guessing that the difference between BLM land and national monument land is things like cattle grazing and other things. Growing up in a rural area I would go and shot the hell out of jack rabbits, etc. on BLM land any time I wanted to. You can't do that on national forest land with the exception of hunting season or in a designated area. No one gave a rat's ass if we did it on BLM land.

    We need more public land in Texas. Less than 2% of Texas is public lands and that is mostly Big Bend National Park. The United States should invade Mexico and get us some public land.
    Last edited by Uncle Ted; 12-05-2017 at 01:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    I am guessing that the difference between BLM land and national monument land is things like cattle grazing and other things. Growing up in a rural area I would go and shot the hell out of jack rabbits, etc. on BLM land any time I wanted to. You can't do that on national forest land with the exception of hunting season or in a designated area. No one gave a rat's ass if we did it on BLM land.

    We need more public land in Texas. Less than 2% of Texas is public lands and that is mostly Big Bend National Park. The United States should invade Mexican and get us some public land.
    Nevada is mostly public land of one sort or another. 84.9% according to the article linked below. More than 58.6 Million acres of the 70 Million acres located in Nevada.

    Reid was trying to free up a lot of that land.

    As I understand it, we have (1) BLM land, (2) Forestry land or Parks, (3) Monument land, with descending rights of use, and (4) BIA land, (5) Bureau of Reclamation land, (6) DoD land, (7) DOE land with almost no rights for many of these.

    The public lands for use include Fish and Wildlife, Forestry and National Parks.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Why's that?
    For most of the reasons stated by Eddie. I think Obama (and Clinton) abused the powers in the Antiquities Act and such large monuments should be designated by Congress, after thorough review and debate, not with the swipe of a pen from one person.

    I also think the left is fear mongering when they talk about the industrialization of those areas.

    Maybe Iím wrong, but it seems Trump reduces the national monument areas down to a more reasonable size, which I applaud.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    For most of the reasons stated by Eddie. I think Obama (and Clinton) abused the powers in the Antiquities Act and such large monuments should be designated by Congress, after thorough review and debate, not with the swipe of a pen from one person.

    I also think the left is fear mongering when they talk about the industrialization of those areas.

    Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems Trump reduces the national monument areas down to a more reasonable size, which I applaud.


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    I'm still confused why people like this, other than Trump-is-sticking-it-to-the-elites! There are Ted's arguments [once he realized that this was still federal land], like shooting rabbits and grazing: they don't move the needle for me. Southern Utah is a TERRIBLE place to be raising livestock. No comment about removing landmark distinction to enable kids to shoot rabbits.

    I guess there is something to the anti-presidential power argument (Moliere), but it is hard to see how letting Trump alone sign these out of existence solves that problem. Basically, this appears to weaken protection of these federal lands. #KeepUtahBeautifulNotLikeTexas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I'm still confused why people like this, other than Trump-is-sticking-it-to-the-elites! There are Ted's arguments [once he realized that this was still federal land], like shooting rabbits and grazing: they don't move the needle for me. Southern Utah is a TERRIBLE place to be raising livestock. No comment about removing landmark distinction to enable kids to shoot rabbits.

    I guess there is something to the anti-presidential power argument (Moliere), but it is hard to see how letting Trump alone sign these out of existence solves that problem. Basically, this appears to weaken protection of these federal lands. #KeepUtahBeautifulNotLikeTexas
    Ted's brief description regarding various protections and uses depending on designation is exactly what this is all about.

    You don't care about raising livestock in Southern Utah - but there are ranchers there who would prefer not to have to start looking to relocate or for a new career. There are additional permits and requirements for a lot of the activities that happen there. One of the reasons the tribes have supported the monument is because they were told they could continue to gather firewood and various other plants and hold traditional ceremonies there. That's great - if you trust the government to not change their mind.

    Speaking with one of the locals - there was concern about even things as simple as water and water rights. Apparently the monument designation impacts their ability to further develop mountain wells that provide potable water for the area and the pipes that get them to the cities.

    In all of this, I go back to the idea that when decisions are being made regarding this much land - it's much better to have it go through the legislative process where people have the opportunity to be heard and debate to take place rather than have one person with their pen making all of the decisions.

    It's funny to me that the people filing lawsuits now against Trump's actions - stating that they don't believe the antiquities act gives him that authority and he is over-reaching - had no problem with Obama essentially doing the same thing. They are right, of course. Trump shouldn't have that much authority. And Obama shouldn't have had it before him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I'm still confused why people like this, other than Trump-is-sticking-it-to-the-elites! There are Ted's arguments [once he realized that this was still federal land], like shooting rabbits and grazing: they don't move the needle for me. Southern Utah is a TERRIBLE place to be raising livestock. No comment about removing landmark distinction to enable kids to shoot rabbits.

    I guess there is something to the anti-presidential power argument (Moliere), but it is hard to see how letting Trump alone sign these out of existence solves that problem. Basically, this appears to weaken protection of these federal lands. #KeepUtahBeautifulNotLikeTexas
    One boss I had when I was in college was big on going down to Escalante. He was ticked when Clinton did what he did, mostly because it drew attention to a remote area that was never visited by anyone. The monument designation is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. Prior to bears ears being designated I bet very few people even knew about it. Now, a lot of people suddenly have internet in visiting since itís been formally designated. Sometimes just letting it be is the best answer, but maybe Iím the age of the internet that argument loses some weight since people can more easily find out information on remote, less visited gems.


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  16. #5806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    Nevada is mostly public land of one sort or another. 84.9% according to the article linked below. More than 58.6 Million acres of the 70 Million acres located in Nevada.

    Reid was trying to free up a lot of that land.

    As I understand it, we have (1) BLM land, (2) Forestry land or Parks, (3) Monument land, with descending rights of use, and (4) BIA land, (5) Bureau of Reclamation land, (6) DoD land, (7) DOE land with almost no rights for many of these.

    The public lands for use include Fish and Wildlife, Forestry and National Parks.

    https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/h...ent-in-nevada/

    I thought Reid was trying to change the public land designation to drive Cliven Bundy's cattle off. BTW, what ever happened to that? Are Cliven and his sons rotting in federal prison yet?

    I miss the days when my brother and I would drive our old surplus army jeep out of the BLM land and waste hundreds of rounds of ammo on the jack rabbits that were destroying farmers' haystacks. Of course, we were doing a public service by killing all those bunnies and were very humane about it (e.g., we didn't play "bunny baseball" or anything and just used them for target practice to sharpen our skills). Of course, here in Texas we have much bigger targets.
    Last edited by Uncle Ted; 12-05-2017 at 01:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I'm still confused why people like this, other than Trump-is-sticking-it-to-the-elites! There are Ted's arguments [once he realized that this was still federal land], like shooting rabbits and grazing: they don't move the needle for me. Southern Utah is a TERRIBLE place to be raising livestock. No comment about removing landmark distinction to enable kids to shoot rabbits.

    I guess there is something to the anti-presidential power argument (Moliere), but it is hard to see how letting Trump alone sign these out of existence solves that problem. Basically, this appears to weaken protection of these federal lands. #KeepUtahBeautifulNotLikeTexas
    It is exactly this kind of thing that enrages the folks who live there. They have lived there for generations and are doing fine. Then some goofball in DC decides that they shouldn't be able to continue their livelihood, without any input or consideration from local residents or political leaders.
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  18. #5808

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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I'm still confused why people like this, other than Trump-is-sticking-it-to-the-elites! There are Ted's arguments [once he realized that this was still federal land], like shooting rabbits and grazing: they don't move the needle for me. Southern Utah is a TERRIBLE place to be raising livestock. No comment about removing landmark distinction to enable kids to shoot rabbits.

    I guess there is something to the anti-presidential power argument (Moliere), but it is hard to see how letting Trump alone sign these out of existence solves that problem. Basically, this appears to weaken protection of these federal lands. #KeepUtahBeautifulNotLikeTexas
    Eddie answers this well, but there is also the issue of private and state inholdings in such a large area. Oil, gas and mineral exploration may be the biggest issue, as it is potentially a huge source of income for counties that otherwise have very little tax base. Water rights, grazing rights, and development rights are also an issue. Any designation that involves a large portion of land, including state and private land, should go through Congress, and I believe was the intent of the Antiquities Act. Trump is using authority he shouldn't have, but he is using it to correct what many believe was a vast overreach by previous presidents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It is exactly this kind of thing that enrages the folks who live there. They have lived there for generations and are doing fine. Then some goofball in DC decides that they shouldn't be able to continue their livelihood, without any input or consideration from local residents or political leaders.
    Preach. It is also the reason Trump was elected. Washington politicians have themselves to thank for enraging the flyover states with these kinds of things to the point that they would vote for anyone but a politician. Fortunately, it should only last 4 years, and hopefully, we don't have a nuclear war while we wait.

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  20. #5810
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    Eddie answers this well, but there is also the issue of private and state inholdings in such a large area. Oil, gas and mineral exploration may be the biggest issue, as it is potentially a huge source of income for counties that otherwise have very little tax base. Water rights, grazing rights, and development rights are also an issue. Any designation that involves a large portion of land, including state and private land, should go through Congress, and I believe was the intent of the Antiquities Act. Trump is using authority he shouldn't have, but he is using it to correct what many believe was a vast overreach by previous presidents.
    Yeah, yeah, yeah... oil, gas, minerals, cattle grazing, etc. We need to protect our jackrabbit hunting lands!
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  21. #5811

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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I'm still confused why people like this, other than Trump-is-sticking-it-to-the-elites! There are Ted's arguments [once he realized that this was still federal land], like shooting rabbits and grazing: they don't move the needle for me. Southern Utah is a TERRIBLE place to be raising livestock. No comment about removing landmark distinction to enable kids to shoot rabbits.

    I guess there is something to the anti-presidential power argument (Moliere), but it is hard to see how letting Trump alone sign these out of existence solves that problem. Basically, this appears to weaken protection of these federal lands. #KeepUtahBeautifulNotLikeTexas
    There is a lot of livestock raised in Southern Utah. It's amazing how cows can survive on land that looks like it wouldn't sustain anything. Over the years I've popped my head out of a Lake Powell slot canyon, or crested a rock near shore only to find a herd of cattle somehow thriving on land that is mostly rock and sand. Most of the time it's Navajo's doing the ranching.
    Last edited by Shaka; 12-05-2017 at 03:01 PM.

  22. #5812
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    Mike Pence needs to resign immediately...

    MIKE PENCE ONCE RATTED OUT HIS FRATERNITY BROTHERS FOR HAVING A KEG

    Vice President Mike Pence reportedly snitched on his Phi Gamma Delta fraternity brothers for having a keg at a party on his college’s dry campus and got his entire house in trouble.


    Pence, then a sophomore at Hanover College, alerted the dean that his brothers were violating the small Presbyterian school’s strict no-alcohol policy, his former fraternity brother Dan Murphy told The Atlantic in a profile published on Tuesday.
    [...]
    http://www.newsweek.com/mike-pence-o...ing-keg-735711


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    There is a lot of livestock raised in Southern Utah. It's amazing how cows can survive on land that looks like it wouldn't sustain anything. Over the years I've popped my head out of a Lake Powell slot canyon, or crested a rock near shore only to find a heard of cattle somehow thriving on land that is mostly rock and sand. Most of the time it's Navajo's doing the ranching.
    My BIL runs a herd of cattle right next to Bullfrog.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    My BIL runs a herd of cattle right next to Bullfrog.
    Can you give me his phone number? I'd like to get your BIL on a conference call with AJ so she can set him straight. TIA.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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  25. #5815

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    Welp, this bodes well for Mideast peace:

    Trump to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital in policy shift that could spark unrest


    President Trump on Wednesday plans to upend decades of U.S. policy by formally recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and ordering the relocation of the U.S. Embassy to that city, senior aides said, a decision that could derail the White House’s peace efforts and spark regional unrest.

    Trump will make his pronouncement in a midday speech after months of deliberation within his administration and consultations with governments in the Middle East. But in a sign of the complexities of such a shift, White House aides emphasized that Trump will sign another six-month waiver maintaining the embassy’s current location in Tel Aviv because the process of moving it will take at least three or four years....

    “Our president said, ‘You don’t have anything that would make up for this on Jerusalem,’ ” said Nabil Shaath, an adviser to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas who said Abbas had personally briefed him on the call. Abbas told Trump that he would “not accept it” and warned that the president was “playing into the hands of extremism.”

    But Trump “just went on saying he had to do it,” Shaath said.

    In Riyadh, the Saudi Press Agency, using the Arabic name for Jerusalem, said King Salman bin Abdul Aziz warned Trump “that such a dangerous step of relocation or recognition of Al-Quds as the capital of Israel would constitute a flagrant provocation of Muslims, all over the world.”

    The backlash from other Middle East nations mounted Tuesday.

    Speaking to the Turkish parliament, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said American recognition of Jerusalem would be a “red line” for Muslims, possibly forcing Turkey to cut diplomatic ties with Israel that were recently renewed after a six-year hiatus.

    Senior White House officials described Trump’s decision as the fulfillment of a key campaign promise that has broad bipartisan support in Congress. They emphasized that the move will not fundamentally change other aspects of U.S. policy. For example, they said, Trump remains supportive of a two-state solution, if that’s what the parties agree to, and the administration is maintaining the status quo on Jerusalem’s holy sites...


    No other countries have their embassies in Jerusalem, with a long-standing international consensus that the city’s status should be decided in a peace deal between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

    Palestinian factions jointly announced three “days of rage,” beginning Wednesday, to protest the potential U.S. Embassy move and recognition of Jerusalem. In a statement, they called on supporters around the world to gather in city centers and at Israeli embassies and consulates to voice their anger.

    In a statement late Tuesday, the U.S. Consulate in Jerusalem urged American citizens in Israel to avoid large crowds or areas where security had been increased, and ordered its staff members and their families to avoid Jerusalem’s Old City and the West Bank except for “essential” business.

    Israel annexed East Jerusalem, which contains most of the important holy sites for Jews, Muslims and Christians, after the 1967 war with Arab powers. Palestinians claim East Jerusalem as the capital of a future state, while many Israelis and some in the United States consider the city sector to be already and irrevocably under Israeli administration. Some of Trump’s prominent Jewish backers appear to hold that view, although he has said he wants to honor Palestinian sovereignty through a mutual settlement.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.baa1ff11c1c6
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Welp, this bodes well for Mideast peace:

    Trump to recognize Jerusalem as Israelís capital in policy shift that could spark unrest





    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.baa1ff11c1c6
    Itís all part of Jaredís master plan. MAGA!
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  27. #5817
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    Can you give me his phone number? I'd like to get your BIL on a conference call with AJ so she can set him straight. TIA.


    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

  28. #5818
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Itís all part of Jaredís Clinton's master plan. MAGA!
    FIFY.

    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    Y'all hear that? We're using code names. --Evelle Snoats

  29. #5819

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    FIFY.

    Lol at acting like any notmal.president would be this dumb

  30. #5820
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    Lol at acting like any notmal.president would be this dumb
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    Y'all hear that? We're using code names. --Evelle Snoats

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