President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[frank ryan]

Trump trashes our NATO allies on camera in front of them. Wow.

He's doing his damnedest to realign the US closer to Russia and damage NATO. Horrific stuff.

[Walter Sobchak]

Europe has been rebuilt. NATO is obsolete and should go away.

[Maximus]

Europe has been rebuilt. NATO is obsolete and should go away.

just what putin wants

[Walter Sobchak]

just what putin wants

As does Rand Paul and Mike Lee... God bless 'em.

[Crockett]

Crockett likes the guy, for one.

This explains a lot. You don't actually read my posts. Three posts above yours I wrote that I don't like him and don't want him leading our country. But you see what you want to see, not what I actually write. I have said repeatedly that I don't like Trump, will criticize things he does that I don't like, but I'll also support the actions I like.

Cowboy gets it, though.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Can we have these political discussions without getting personal? We seem to spend more time talking about posters and their moral failings for supporting/not supporting Trump than actual political issues. Come on, folks.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't understand the 'Trump Apologist' and 'Trump Supporter' labels applied to posters here. I didn't go back through the whole thread, but I haven't seen anyone here who likes the guy. There are different levels of disdain, but even handful of people who voted for him have expressed that they wish there had been another option.

He's shown that he is insecure, egocentric, thin skinned, brash, crude, arrogant, amoral, power hungry, divisive, and unwilling to either take advice or compromise. His foreign policy appears to be a disaster, and his approach to trade was proven calamitous in the '30's.

Still, he's done a couple of good things. Not a lot, and not enough for me to wish the party hadn't nominated someone else, but they've been good, nonetheless. First, I like his court picks, though I admittedly don't know much about the new guy whose name escapes me. Best, he freed the Hammonds, who were sentenced to 5 years for letting a fire on private property encroach onto 5 acres of public land covered with sagebrush. The initial court said the minimum 5-year sentence would "shock the conscience", but the Obama administration appealed the sentence and gave them the full 5 years. It was an abhorrent miscarriages of justice.

I mentioned the Hammonds' pardon in another thread, but I want it mentioned here. Even bad men can do good things. If people can't recognize that as a good thing then they may be no more objective than the Trump lovers.

I haven't seen anyone, even the most ardent Trump haters, claim that he is incapable of ever doing a single good thing. If anyone makes such a claim, I will join you in disagreeing.

[Crockett]

He's doing his damnedest to realign the US closer to Russia and damage NATO. Horrific stuff.

What?

Here's what Trump actually said:

“Germany, as far as I’m concerned, is captive to Russia because it’s getting so much of its energy from Russia,” Trump told NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, in a fiery on-camera exchange that was among the harshest in the history of the post-World War II alliance.

“We have to talk about the billions and billions of dollars that’s being paid to the country we’re supposed to be protecting you against,” Trump said, referring to European purchases of Russian natural gas.

How does reduce your dependence on Russia, stop sending Russia so much money for gas, and start paying your fair share to be able to defend as part of NATO realign the US closer to Russia? What is happening is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you say. Trump wants NATO and especially Germany to step up. Germany only has a few functioning fighter jets and uses broomsticks for guns in training because they underfund their defense so much. It's embarrasing. Even if Trump could have delivered the message more diplomatically, what part of what he said is incorrect? Seriously, I'd like to know.

BTW, you ever sat in a meeting with Germans? I do all the time. They are the most direct, speak-your-mind, say-it-to-your-face people you will ever meet. They can handle it.

[Commando]

I haven't seen anyone, even the most ardent Trump haters, claim that he is incapable of ever doing a single good thing. If anyone makes such a claim, I will join you in disagreeing.

I used to believe he was a normal person deep down and all that crazy rhetoric was to mobilize the mobile homes for the election. I was soon proven wrong by his doubling down on his contempt for immigrants, DACA kids, refugees, Muslims, and non-whites. He's bad for America like Sean Hannity.

[BlueK]

What?

Here's what Trump actually said:



How does reduce your dependence on Russia, stop sending Russia so much money for gas, and start paying your fair share to be able to defend as part of NATO realign the US closer to Russia? What is happening is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you say. Trump wants NATO and especially Germany to step up. Germany only has a few functioning fighter jets and uses broomsticks for guns in training because they underfund their defense so much. It's embarrasing. Even if Trump could have delivered the message more diplomatically, what part of what he said is incorrect? Seriously, I'd like to know.

BTW, you ever sat in a meeting with Germans? I do all the time. They are the most direct, speak-your-mind, say-it-to-your-face people you will ever meet. They can handle it.

I'm having a hard time understanding how German businesses buying oil and gas from the most efficient supplier for them should have anything to do with international alliances between Germany the country and the US. It sounds to me more like a rhetorical smokescreen to excuse Trump's attempts to do something Putin really likes which is to stir up trouble in the US relationship with Germany and the rest of Western Europe.

[Northwestcoug]

I'm having a hard time understanding how German businesses buying oil and gas from the most efficient supplier for them should have anything to do with international alliances between Germany the country and the US. It sounds to me more like a rhetorical smokescreen to excuse Trump's attempts to do something Putin really likes which is to stir up trouble in the US relationship with Germany and the rest of Western Europe.

Yep. And a really ham-fisted attempt at that.

[Uncle Ted]

I'm having a hard time understanding how German businesses buying oil and gas from the most efficient supplier for them should have anything to do with international alliances between Germany the country and the US. It sounds to me more like a rhetorical smokescreen to excuse Trump's attempts to do something Putin really likes which is to stir up trouble in the US relationship with Germany and the rest of Western Europe.

They are buying oil and gas from those basturd Russians.... you know, the main reason that NATO exists or are the Ruskies part of NATO now? I hope that helps.

Edit: Maybe NATO is obsolete like Walter said.

[Commando]

Who would stand to gain if NATO was abolished? Say if there was no visible Western front to provide a unified resistance to Russian shenanigans?

[Uncle Ted]

Who would stand to gain if NATO was abolished? Say if there was no visible Western front to provide a unified resistance to Russian shenanigans?

They wouldn't invade Germany... who would buy their gas and oil crap?

[BlueK]

They wouldn't invade Germany... who would buy their gas and oil crap?

Uh, Germany would still buy it if the Russians took them over, actually probably even more so. Spoils of war, right?

Also, PUTIN sure doesn't talk or act like he thinks NATO is obsolete. It's more like a giant pain in his ass that he hopes Donald Trump can do his bidding to get rid of for him. It would make it a little easier for him to run the tanks into places like the Baltics or Poland. the Russian economy sucks. A country that big with an economy that produces the same as Italy? Pathetic. Putin's old school dictator style instead of opening up freedoms and markets is to fix that by taking over other countries.

[Uncle Ted]

Uh, Germany would still buy it if the Russians took them over, actually probably even more so. Spoils of war, right?

No, Germany wouldn't be buying Russian oil at the point... "buying" implies that there isn't a gun pointed at your head.

[BlueK]

No, Germany wouldn't be buying Russian oil at the point... "buying" implies that there isn't a gun pointed at your head.

Ok, whatever you want to call it. Let them have a little oil and take all their money.

[Jeff Lebowski]

No, Germany wouldn't be buying Russian oil at the point... "buying" implies that there isn't a gun pointed at your head.

Hey, welcome back.

[cowboy]

Can we have these political discussions without getting personal? We seem to spend more time talking about posters and their moral failings for supporting/not supporting Trump than actual political issues. Come on, folks.

That would be nice.

I haven't seen anyone, even the most ardent Trump haters, claim that he is incapable of ever doing a single good thing. If anyone makes such a claim, I will join you in disagreeing.

I specifically used "people" instead of "you" in my last paragraph to be clear I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone here. I was more talking about all the things I've seen on social and main-stream media since I posted about it yesterday.The Hammond case is one of the most blatant violations of civil liberty and the 8th Amendment I can think of. I think there are plenty of cases where the 8th amendment is stretched and even broken, particularly in drug-related crimes and the 3-strikes laws, but this was a case where they were already sentenced and then the administration appealed it to make it unduly harsh. On top of all of that, the whole thing was part of a massive extortion effort to force the Hammonds to sell their private property to the government because it lay in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Granted, the Hammonds weren't perfect and they made mistakes, but their sentence was a travesty.

Trump absolutely did the right thing, and it is either ignored or criticized by Trump-haters across the country. It's depressing when hate consumes people so much that they'd rather let innocent people suffer than admit a bad person actually did a very good thing. It doesn't make him good, just right in this case. In fact, I doubt it would have made his radar had he not been taking so much heat from farmers who are part of his base and very pissed off at him over the tariffs.

[Topper]

That would be nice.


I specifically used "people" instead of "you" in my last paragraph to be clear I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone here. I was more talking about all the things I've seen on social and main-stream media since I posted about it yesterday.The Hammond case is one of the most blatant violations of civil liberty and the 8th Amendment I can think of. I think there are plenty of cases where the 8th amendment is stretched and even broken, particularly in drug-related crimes and the 3-strikes laws, but this was a case where they were already sentenced and then the administration appealed it to make it unduly harsh. On top of all of that, the whole thing was part of a massive extortion effort to force the Hammonds to sell their private property to the government because it lay in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Granted, the Hammonds weren't perfect and they made mistakes, but their sentence was a travesty.

Trump absolutely did the right thing, and it is either ignored or criticized by Trump-haters across the country. It's depressing when hate consumes people so much that they'd rather let innocent people suffer than admit a bad person actually did a very good thing. It doesn't make him good, just right in this case. In fact, I doubt it would have made his radar had he not been taking so much heat from farmers who are part of his base and very pissed off at him over the tariffs.

I remember the Bundy events but haven't followed the Hammond pardons. What do you believe are the reasonable, if any, counter-arguments to the pardons? A never Trump argument is not a reasonable counter-argument.

[Crockett]

I'm having a hard time understanding how German businesses buying oil and gas from the most efficient supplier for them should have anything to do with international alliances between Germany the country and the US. It sounds to me more like a rhetorical smokescreen to excuse Trump's attempts to do something Putin really likes which is to stir up trouble in the US relationship with Germany and the rest of Western Europe.

I guess it depends on how you view Russia. If Russia is now a benign neighbor and merely a trading partner, then sure go with the most efficient. If Russia remains a threat and a geopolitical foe, then getting too much of a strategic resource from them means a dependency that brings real risk to your national security. If it's A, then you have to question the value of NATO (as Walter has), which was setup to defend Western Europe from the Soviet Union and its satellite states. If it's B, then Trump's questioning is valid.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That would be nice.


I specifically used "people" instead of "you" in my last paragraph to be clear I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone here. I was more talking about all the things I've seen on social and main-stream media since I posted about it yesterday.The Hammond case is one of the most blatant violations of civil liberty and the 8th Amendment I can think of. I think there are plenty of cases where the 8th amendment is stretched and even broken, particularly in drug-related crimes and the 3-strikes laws, but this was a case where they were already sentenced and then the administration appealed it to make it unduly harsh. On top of all of that, the whole thing was part of a massive extortion effort to force the Hammonds to sell their private property to the government because it lay in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Granted, the Hammonds weren't perfect and they made mistakes, but their sentence was a travesty.

Trump absolutely did the right thing, and it is either ignored or criticized by Trump-haters across the country. It's depressing when hate consumes people so much that they'd rather let innocent people suffer than admit a bad person actually did a very good thing. It doesn't make him good, just right in this case. In fact, I doubt it would have made his radar had he not been taking so much heat from farmers who are part of his base and very pissed off at him over the tariffs.

I know this case hits home to you, but I think it pales in comparison the damage our government has done via mandatory minimum sentencing, racial profiling, and drug laws in general. This was an overreach against a rancher. The War on Drugs has devastated countless poor and black people. Yes, Trump did the right thing but it didn't take much courage to pardon some white red-state folks.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Driving around during the noon hour, I was listening to Fox (!) and was very impressed by Shepard Smith's total takedown of Trump's statements regarding NATO and our allies, pointing out several Trump lies and why NATO is important. It's too bad Trump turns off Fox during the period between Fox and Friends and Hannity, but one hopes he gets the message eventually.

[Crockett]

I know this case hits home to you, but I think it pales in comparison the damage our government has done via mandatory minimum sentencing, racial profiling, and drug laws in general. This was an overreach against a rancher. The War on Drugs has devastated countless poor and black people. Yes, Trump did the right thing but it didn't take much courage to pardon some white red-state folks.

Oregon is red now?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Oregon is red now?

Ha. Touche'.

Either way, this will resonate with his rural base.

[Crockett]

Ha. Touche'.

Either way, this will resonate with his rural base.

Hey, you got my hopes up for a minute.

[Uncle Ted]

Driving around during the noon hour, I was listening to Fox (!) and was very impressed by Shepard Smith's total takedown of Trump's statements regarding NATO and our allies, pointing out several Trump lies and why NATO is important. It's too bad Trump turns off Fox during the period between Fox and Friends and Hannity, but one hopes he gets the message eventually.

FOX?!?

Yeah, I don't know where Drumpf gets the idea that military spending is 4.2% of GDP... it is more like 3.6%:

nato.jpg

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc.../#7e264fde14cf

LOL... we should get out of NATO just so we are no longer associated with all these loser countries.

[Topper]

I know this case hits home to you, but I think it pales in comparison the damage our government has done via mandatory minimum sentencing, racial profiling, and drug laws in general. This was an overreach against a rancher. The War on Drugs has devastated countless poor and black people. Yes, Trump did the right thing but it didn't take much courage to pardon some white red-state folks.

There are a lot of poor people of any color devastated by the War on Drugs that deserve some pardons.

[bluegoose]

Ha. Touche'.

Either way, this will resonate with his rural base.

It's a very rural and conservative state outside of Portland and Eugene. Tons of rednecks out in NWC's neighborhood.

[Northwestcoug]

It's a very rural and conservative state outside of Portland and Eugene. Tons of rednecks out in NWC's neighborhood.

Well, not in my exclusive neighborhood!

Bend has a nice nexus of rednecks (east side) and hippies (west side). There certainly is a sizable group that sympathizes with the ranchers in Eastern Oregon. But there's plenty of progressive folks on the other side of the river. Most people play nice and meet in the middle.