President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[old_gregg]

If it was McMullin vs Hillary, then yes I would have voted for him. I listened to several interviews of him and I agreed with a lot of things he said.

The EM is a "joke" has to do with the fact that he mysteriously showed up very late in the game and had no chance, yet a bunch of Utahans were jumpin on the bandwagon. He had the potential to be the next Ross Perot: split the vote and give a Clinton the win. And even more so how he has treated his campaign staffers in the aftermath of his campaign: link. Stiffed a bunch of staffers a lot of money and accumulated a bunch of unpaid debt he has no intention of paying.

what kind of shithead would accrue a bunch of debt they have no intention of paying

[frank ryan]

what kind of shithead would accrue a bunch of debt they have no intention of paying

Now I realize that not only has the amazing businessman Trump had multiple bankruptcies, earned a reputation for flat out stiffing employees and service providers, but his campaign and associated committees also have some unpaid bills. But we need to be mindful of Crockett and pro-Trump folks who've complained about this forum being an echo chamber. Let's make it a safe space for them.

[Applejack]

NEWS FLASH: McMullin is a joke.

Cricket and I agree on something!!!!

[Crockett]

Now I realize that not only has the amazing businessman Trump had multiple bankruptcies, earned a reputation for flat out stiffing employees and service providers, but his campaign and associated committees also have some unpaid bills. But we need to be mindful of Crockett and pro-Trump folks who've complained about this forum being an echo chamber. Let's make it a safe space for them.

Hey Frank and little og, I'm not here defending Trump's financial history. My point was to stop putting McMullin on some pedestal as though he was some white knight, moral paragon, or legit political candidate.

Frank, speaking of echo chamber, any collusion, yet?

[BlueK]

Interesting take on Trump's relationship with the government he's at the head of. In short, it's mostly his own aides and others around him in the government he doesn't want to know what he's talking with Putin about.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog...-us-government

[PaloAltoCougar]

Now I realize that not only has the amazing businessman Trump had multiple bankruptcies, earned a reputation for flat out stiffing employees and service providers, but his campaign and associated committees also have some unpaid bills.

An aside... I recently finished a biography of Joshua Chamberlain and two weeks ago visited his home in Maine (the 20th Maine regiment that he commanded essentially saved the Union at Gettysburg's Little Round Top, and his troops accepted the Confederate surrender at Appomattox by saluting the vanquished army, a move that did much to reduce hatred on both sides). He was wounded six times during the war, and suffered terribly from one wound throughout the rest of his life--he is regarded as the last soldier to have died from his Civil War injuries. In his later years, he was involved in numerous business ventures, and some failed, unsurprisingly. Chamberlain was very deeply troubled that people who had worked on or invested in the failed ventures had done so because of his reputation, and he did whatever he could to reduce their losses at his personal expense. A truly great man and the opposite of Trump and, in fairness, many others today.

[Jeff Lebowski]

An aside... I recently finished a biography of Joshua Chamberlain and two weeks ago visited his home in Maine (the 20th Maine regiment that he commanded essentially saved the Union at Gettysburg's Little Round Top, and his troops accepted the Confederate surrender at Appomattox by saluting the vanquished army, a move that did much to reduce hatred on both sides). He was wounded six times during the war, and suffered terribly from one wound throughout the rest of his life--he is regarded as the last soldier to have died from his Civil War injuries. In his later years, he was involved in numerous business ventures, and some failed, unsurprisingly. Chamberlain was very deeply troubled that people who had worked on or invested in the failed ventures had done so because of his reputation, and he did whatever he could to reduce their losses at his personal expense. A truly great man and the opposite of Trump and, in fairness, many others today.

Which book? I am interested.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Which book? I am interested.

In the Hands of Providence, Joshua L. Chamberlain & the American Civil War, by Alice Rains Trulock. It's a bit hagiographic, but well-written and a quick read. I really enjoyed it. Despite dealing with terrible wounds (at his house I saw the mangled bullet that tore through his abdomen, resulting in a 19th Century partial colostomy), he lived until 1914. Shortly before his death, he returned to Little Round Top as he did often during his later years, and wrote the following:

I went--it is is not long ago--to stand again upon that crest whose one day's crown of fire has passed into the blazend coronet of fame; to look again upon the rocks whereon were laid as on the altar the lives of Vincent and O'Rourke. [He writes eloquently about other fallen comrades, and then concludes] I sat there alone on the storied crest, till the sun went down as it did before over the misty hills, and the darkness crept up the slopes, till from all earthly sight I was buried as with those before. But oh, what radiant companionship rose around, what steadfast ranks of power, what bearing of heroic souls. Oh, the glory that beamed through those nights and days. Nobody will ever know it here!--I am sorry most of all for that.... The proud young valor that rose above the mortal, and then at last was mortal after all...

Where are today's Chamberlains?

[Walter Sobchak]

Where are today's Chamberlains?

LMGTFY. First hit:

amputees.jpg

[Non Sequitur]

This is the sound of the goalposts moving.

Thank you for your diagnosis, Dr.

And yet, you never address the questions. Yes or no, do you think Trump is a man governed by scruples? It's a simple question.

[Topper]

And yet, you never address the questions. Yes or no, do you think Trump is a man governed by scruples? It's a simple question.

Questionable scruples, yes.

[Crockett]

And yet, you never address the questions. Yes or no, do you think Trump is a man governed by scruples? It's a simple question.

Here is your original statement:

Is there any doubt in your mind that if Trump wins another term he will seek to eliminate presidential term limits? If he were able, is there any point at which Trump would cease to elevate the authority of the Executive branch over the judicial and legislative branches? If he were able, at what point would Trump stop trying to control the press? If he were able, are there any measures he wouldn't take to silence political opponents? If Trump could rig elections with impunity, is there any doubt in your mind that he would do so? Trump may never become a dictator, but he is definitely angling to establish an authoritarian government, and the thing that makes Trump so dangerous is that he is not handicapped by scruples or ideology as he seeks to establish that government. Left to his own devices, are there any lines that Trump would not be willing to cross?

Now you are asking about scruples. That looks like goalposts moving to me.

Asking about scruples is a pretty vague question. Pretty much everyone has scruples it's just those lines are in different places for different people. I don't think he will cross the lines you think he will or that he would even desire, too. I don't think he would rig elections, I don't think he will eliminate term limits, I don't think he will silence his political opponents (do you hear silence out there? quite the opposite -- there is so much criticism out there and he mostly ignores it and then tweets disses in other cases) (btw, what has he DONE to control the press other than SAY harsh things? What Obama DID was way worse than what Trump has DONE). So, I do think Trump has some scruples, but he's not the most moral person out there, for sure. I think he has more scruples than the Clintons, which is admittedly a low bar.

[Commando]

WHATABOUT

[Jeff Lebowski]

WHATABOUT

Where is Uncle Ted? I miss him.

[Moliere]

“Scruples” sounds like an std, so I’m pretty sure Trump has plenty of it

[Walter Sobchak]

And yet, you never address the questions. Yes or no, do you think Trump is a man governed by scruples? It's a simple question.

And a dumb one. As Crockett stated... it's so vague as to be meaningless.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Applying the traditional meaning of "scruples," I'd say (unsurprisingly) that Trump has rarely, if ever, had any scruples. Scruples are not the same thing as ethics or morals. Rather, I've always understood them to mean second thoughts or hesitation based on moral or ethical grounds. I doubt Trump has ever had second thoughts about anything from a morals perspective (I'd love to hear a counterpoint to that). Rather, his decisionmaking throughout his life has rested on a single principle: what's best for Donald Trump. Having second thoughts about those types of decisions (which I'm sure he's had) is not the same thing as scruples. I really doubt Trump has ever had any.

[Walter Sobchak]

Applying the traditional meaning of "scruples," I'd say (unsurprisingly) that Trump has rarely, if ever, had any scruples. Scruples are not the same thing as ethics or morals. Rather, I've always understood them to mean second thoughts or hesitation based on moral or ethical grounds. I doubt Trump has ever had second thoughts about anything from a morals perspective (I'd love to hear a counterpoint to that). Rather, his decisionmaking throughout his life has rested on a single principle: what's best for Donald Trump. Having second thoughts about those types of decisions (which I'm sure he's had) is not the same thing as scruples. I really doubt Trump has ever had any.

Dang. If I hadn't read this thoughtful critique, I probably would have never considered that most politicians aren't looking out for themselves.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Dang. If I hadn't read this thoughtful critique, I probably would have never considered that most politicians aren't looking out for themselves.

Good one! But I ask this sincerely: Do you believe that Trump is typical among politicians and, for that matter, businesspeople with respect to his amorality, self-regard and self-interest, and not on the extreme end of the scale with those characteristics? Obviously, I don't, but I'll allow for the possibility I'm simply mistaken. Maybe his weird and unfortunate hair has affected my power of discernment.

[Commando]

“Scruples” sounds like an std, so I’m pretty sure Trump has plenty of it

I honestly think he's governed by syphilis.

[Flystripper]

I honestly think he's governed by syphilis.

[Walter Sobchak]

Do you believe that Trump is typical among politicians and, for that matter, businesspeople with respect to his amorality, self-regard and self-interest?

Abso-fucking-lutely.

[Flystripper]

[PaloAltoCougar]

Abso-fucking-lutely.
...

I can't tell when you're joking, but if you're both serious and correct, and if movies about characters like Jordan Belfort and Gordon Gecko are more like documentaries about the business world than fictional accounts of wretched excess among the outliers, then I've led a truly charmed life. While nearly every businessperson acts, as one should, out of self-interest, most of those I've worked with have shown considerable commitment to doing what they believe is best for everyone concerned, including themselves certainly. They also tend to adhere to guiding principles of some type which don't change based upon what will yield the greatest return.

Naïve though I must be, life for me is better when it's not mired in cynicism.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I can't tell when you're joking, but if you're both serious and correct, and if movies about characters like Jordan Belfort and Gordon Gecko are more like documentaries about the business world than fictional accounts of wretched excess among the outliers, then I've led a truly charmed life. While nearly every businessperson acts, as one should, out of self-interest, most of those I've worked with have shown considerable commitment to doing what they believe is best for everyone concerned, including themselves certainly. They also tend to adhere to guiding principles of some type which don't change based upon what will yield the greatest return.

Naïve though I must be, life for me is better when it's not mired in cynicism.

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...=1#post1373434

[Crockett]

I can't tell when you're joking, but if you're both serious and correct, and if movies about characters like Jordan Belfort and Gordon Gecko are more like documentaries about the business world than fictional accounts of wretched excess among the outliers, then I've led a truly charmed life. While nearly every businessperson acts, as one should, out of self-interest, most of those I've worked with have shown considerable commitment to doing what they believe is best for everyone concerned, including themselves certainly. They also tend to adhere to guiding principles of some type which don't change based upon what will yield the greatest return.

Naïve though I must be, life for me is better when it's not mired in cynicism.

I think Trump does live in wretched excess and probably pushes the limits on what he gets away with in business. He is a serial philanderer. He's not who I want leading the country. I want decent and honorable people to be our leaders. Problem is that our political system disincentivizes decent and honorable people from running for office and makes it difficult to stay that way if you make it in. Look at the horrible personal attacks on Romney's character when he ran. If that's how we treat someone like Romney, then that's how you get the Trumps of the world. It's also a poor reflection of the electorate. We get the candidates that we deserve.

[Walter Sobchak]

I've led a truly charmed life. Naïve though I must be.

Agree.

I think Trump does live in wretched excess and probably pushes the limits on what he gets away with in business. He is a serial philanderer. He's not who I want leading the country. I want decent and honorable people to be our leaders. Problem is that our political system disincentivizes decent and honorable people from running for office and makes it difficult to stay that way if you make it in. Look at the horrible personal attacks on Romney's character when he ran. If that's how we treat someone like Romney, then that's how you get the Trumps of the world. It's also a poor reflection of the electorate. We get the candidates that we deserve.

The corollary here is that we also get the media we deserve. Every single dimwitted consumer of The Apprentice (and reality TV shows at large) contributed - in no small part - to the election of Donald Trump.

[cowboy]

I don't understand the 'Trump Apologist' and 'Trump Supporter' labels applied to posters here. I didn't go back through the whole thread, but I haven't seen anyone here who likes the guy. There are different levels of disdain, but even handful of people who voted for him have expressed that they wish there had been another option.

He's shown that he is insecure, egocentric, thin skinned, brash, crude, arrogant, amoral, power hungry, divisive, and unwilling to either take advice or compromise. His foreign policy appears to be a disaster, and his approach to trade was proven calamitous in the '30's.

Still, he's done a couple of good things. Not a lot, and not enough for me to wish the party hadn't nominated someone else, but they've been good, nonetheless. First, I like his court picks, though I admittedly don't know much about the new guy whose name escapes me. Best, he freed the Hammonds, who were sentenced to 5 years for letting a fire on private property encroach onto 5 acres of public land covered with sagebrush. The initial court said the minimum 5-year sentence would "shock the conscience", but the Obama administration appealed the sentence and gave them the full 5 years. It was an abhorrent miscarriages of justice.

I mentioned the Hammonds' pardon in another thread, but I want it mentioned here. Even bad men can do good things. If people can't recognize that as a good thing then they may be no more objective than the Trump lovers.

[frank ryan]

I don't understand the 'Trump Apologist' and 'Trump Supporter' labels applied to posters here. I didn't go back through the whole thread, but I haven't seen anyone here who likes the guy. There are different levels of disdain, but even handful of people who voted for him have expressed that they wish there had been another option.

Crockett likes the guy, for one.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Trump trashes our NATO allies on camera in front of them. Wow.