President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[frank ryan]

--would love to invade the Baltics and bring home those rogues as part of Putin's stated goal of restoring the glory of the CCCP.

Oh yeah, forgot that they breached Estonian territory and abducted an Estonian intelligence officer. I guess to some America is an evil imperialist and blood thirsty country while Russia is just your average nation.

In terms of Ukraine, let’s not forget they shot down a civilian airliner.

[creekster]

I'll put out some suggestions from the article that I shared.

First and foremost... the article explains that compromise is inevitable, yet will still require respect for both nations’ interests.

Or in other words, the bipartisan Russia fear-mongering here in the US has just got to end. It's gotten beyond stupid. "Russia’s critics present a long bill of requirements to be met before they would relax sanctions or otherwise improve relations. Putin could save time by agreeing to be an American vassal."

1. End the Russia sanctions, they accomplish nothing.
2. Trump and Putin could make a bilateral commitment to stay out of other nations’ elections.
3. The two presidents should agree to mutual forbearance on supporting war (e.g. stop fucking with other countries; Russia w/ Ukraine, the US w/ {insert long list here})
4. Trump should propose that both countries withdraw from Syria.
5. addressing the faltering Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty
6. revisiting the soon-expiring Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty

End Russia sanctions because they accomplish nothing? Even if true they at least have symbolic value and should not be ended unilaterally.

A lateral commitment to stay out of each others' elections (at least if you define being IN each others' elections as the media seems to define the Russian involvement in 2016). That's funny. They could also make an equally likely-to-be-maintained bi-lateral commitment to stop sleeping.

I see no equivalence between what the Russians did in Ukraine and what we are doing anywhere else right now. You are offering too much here for too little, even in a real politik analysis.

Both countries withdraw from Syria? Maybe, but the devil there is in the not so little details. Advisors? Arms sales? citizen mercenaries? Enforcement/verification? dealing with incursions from ISIS on Syrian territory?

Addressing the treaties? It needs to be done. But not by Trump. I don't trust him to even understand them, let alone negotiate extensions or enhancements.

I agree with you about the fear mongering. A lot of it is overwrought nonsense (And with that Frank Ryan sends my name to Mueller as a possible subject for investigation). But just because we are being stupid about the Russians' doesn't mean they aren't out to get us, and we should still be very wary.

[Walter Sobchak]

End Russia sanctions because they accomplish nothing? Even if true they at least have symbolic value and should not be ended unilaterally.

A lateral commitment to stay out of each others' elections (at least if you define being IN each others' elections as the media seems to define the Russian involvement in 2016). That's funny. They could also make an equally likely-to-be-maintained bi-lateral commitment to stop sleeping.

So the former can be symbolic but the latter cannot be? Oh, brother. US meddling to get Yelstin elected was such a source of pride it was featured as a TIME cover page, remember?

I see no equivalence between what the Russians did in Ukraine and what we are doing anywhere else right now. You are offering too much here for too little, even in a real politik analysis.

Hey Mr. Putin sir, please stop occupying Crimea. Oh, why do we not leave Iraq and Afghanistan you ask? Well, it's complicated. Oh, and don't mind the permanent US military bases we have built there.

Uh, yeah.

Both countries withdraw from Syria? Maybe, but the devil there is in the not so little details. Advisors? Arms sales? citizen mercenaries? Enforcement/verification? dealing with incursions from ISIS on Syrian territory?

Well the US should withdraw unilaterally. If Trump can get Putin to come along too... great. If not, NBD. We have no business being there as there no security threat to the US in Syria. Russia probably won't go along with this as they have been allies with Syria for a long, long time. At least longer than we were allied with Saddam, amirite?

Addressing the treaties? It needs to be done. But not by Trump. I don't trust him to even understand them, let alone negotiate extensions or enhancements.

It's an agenda item and starts a dialogue. The details can be ironed out by others.

I agree with you about the fear mongering. A lot of it is overwrought nonsense (And with that Frank Ryan sends my name to Mueller as a possible subject for investigation). But just because we are being stupid about the Russians' doesn't mean they aren't out to get us, and we should still be very wary.

Agree. However, the scare tactics work, so I doubt the rhetoric will de-escalate. Trump uses the scare tactics by exploiting immigrants. The Dems use the scare tactics by exploiting Putin/Russians.

[frank ryan]

End Russia sanctions because they accomplish nothing? Even if true they at least have symbolic value and should not be ended unilaterally.

A lateral commitment to stay out of each others' elections (at least if you define being IN each others' elections as the media seems to define the Russian involvement in 2016). That's funny. They could also make an equally likely-to-be-maintained bi-lateral commitment to stop sleeping.

I see no equivalence between what the Russians did in Ukraine and what we are doing anywhere else right now. You are offering too much here for too little, even in a real politik analysis.

Both countries withdraw from Syria? Maybe, but the devil there is in the not so little details. Advisors? Arms sales? citizen mercenaries? Enforcement/verification? dealing with incursions from ISIS on Syrian territory?

Addressing the treaties? It needs to be done. But not by Trump. I don't trust him to even understand them, let alone negotiate extensions or enhancements.

I agree with you about the fear mongering. A lot of it is overwrought nonsense (And with that Frank Ryan sends my name to Mueller as a possible subject for investigation). But just because we are being stupid about the Russians' doesn't mean they aren't out to get us, and we should still be very wary.

Nice dig. I think there is a lot more evidence that thinking no shenanigans happened between Russia and Trump is foolish than being extremely worried or confident that something is.

And some things don’t add to the evidence they are colluded but are concerning like the fact Trump never held a cabinet meeting to address Russian interference in the election, fired the national cybe-security advisor and did not appointment a replacement, constantly putting forward a pro-Russian line while aggresssivey insulting our trusted allies and insists on meeting Putin alone.

Not being worried or suspicious isn’t reasoned skepticism, it’s foolish.

[BlueK]

Nice dig. I think there is a lot more evidence that thinking no shenanigans happened between Russia and Trump is foolish than being extremely worried or confident that something is.

And some things don’t add to the evidence they are colluded but are concerning like the fact Trump never held a cabinet meeting to address Russian interference in the election, fired the national cybe-security advisor and did not appointment a replacement, constantly putting forward a pro-Russian line while aggresssivey insulting our trusted allies and insists on meeting Putin alone.

Not being worried or suspicious isn’t reasoned skepticism, it’s foolish.

If Obama acted like this around Russia and Putin and N. Korea, for that matter, the Republicans would be freaking out. It's silly to try to pretend otherwise.

[Commando]

Trump doubles down on being a sex offender as a way of life. MAGA!

[Jeff Lebowski]

Trump doubles down on being a sex offender as a way of life. MAGA!

That speech/rally yesterday was a clinic on how to degrade the office of POTUS. Good grief, he even mocked Bush Senior's Thousand Point of Light campaign. Unreal.

[BlueK]

That speech/rally yesterday was a clinic on how to degrade the office of POTUS. Good grief, he even mocked Bush Senior's Thousand Point of Light campaign. Unreal.

Nothing to see here. He nominates conservative justices.

On MSNBC Evan McMullin just said Trump himself is a national security threat. sound the apocalyptic alarm.

[frank ryan]

That speech/rally yesterday was a clinic on how to degrade the office of POTUS. Good grief, he even mocked Bush Senior's Thousand Point of Light campaign. Unreal.

He is, by any measure, not a good person.

[frank ryan]

Nothing to see here. He nominates conservative justices.

On MSNBC Evan McMullin just said Trump himself is a national security threat. sound the apocalyptic alarm.

Walter or Ted or someone will call you apocolyptic or paranoid.

[BlueK]

Attacking a respected former President for his charity work? Seriously? Who can defend that? Trump is a piece of garbage.

[Crockett]

Nothing to see here. He nominates conservative justices.

On MSNBC Evan McMullin just said Trump himself is a national security threat. sound the apocalyptic alarm.

The left went into a total meltdown and end-of-the-world hysteria when Kennedy announced his retirement. They understand the stakes. Don't tell me appointing 2 Supreme Court justices (maybe more) isn't worth it. Their impact will last decades. Trump will be out in 2-6 years.

NEWS FLASH: McMullin is a joke.

[Crockett]

It continues to be bizarre that you view Trump as a misunderstood conservative when he is a populist authoritarian strongman, act as though he is restrained by reasonable advisors, and screech when your constant inaccurate parallels between Obama and others to Trump are pointed out. You're not a picked on truth-teller here, you're under informed. Commando is a moderately conservative immigration attorney.

Your post is bizarre. I don't claim Trump to be a misunderstood conservative. I agree he is a populist. I do think he is governing largely as a conservative tho, with some exceptions (including trade policy).

BTW, which inaccurate parallels have been pointed out?

[Crockett]

Do you think Trump is governed by scruples? Do you think his actions are informed by a sense of right and wrong? This is a guy that said he would kill the families of suspected terrorists. This is a guy who said he respected Putin and defended Putin's murderous actions by saying that the U.S. isn't innocent either, that we've killed people as well. Trump is a sociopath. Of that, I'm certain. Not only is he a sociopath, he's a sociopath with a mandate. What part of that do you disagree with?

This is the sound of the goalposts moving.

Thank you for your diagnosis, Dr.

[Crockett]

They're totally going to make out like in that mural.

[Northwestcoug]

Nothing is worth the price of a Trump presidency, certainly not Crockett's hyped-up conservative wins. He is an immoral demagogue who debases both the US presidency and the notion of American excellence. Not to mention humanity in general. Before he is through, the myth of the republican party as a bastion of Reagan-esque conservative ideals will cease to exist (if it hasn't already been destroyed). We can only hope that we'll see a serious national party that can counter-balance the democrats again in our lifetimes.

[Walter Sobchak]

Nothing is worth the price of a Trump presidency, certainly not Crockett's hyped-up conservative wins. He is an immoral demagogue who debases both the US presidency and the notion of American excellence. Not to mention humanity in general. Before he is through, the myth of the republican party as a bastion of Reagan-esque conservative ideals will cease to exist (if it hasn't already been destroyed). We can only hope that we'll see a serious national party that can counter-balance the democrats again in our lifetimes.

Heh. You need to read more Pat Buchanan:

With never-Trump conservatives bailing on the GOP and crying out for the Party of Pelosi to save us, some painful truths need to be restated.

The Republican Party of Bush I and II, of Bob Dole and John McCain, is history. It’s not coming back. Unlike the Bourbons after the Revolution and the Terror, after Napoleon and the Empire, no restoration is in the cards.

It is over. The GOP’s policies of recent decades — the New World Order of George H.W. Bush, the crusades for democracy of Bush II — failed, and are seen as having failed. With Trump’s capture of the party they were repudiated.

There will be no turning back.

[...]

The failures that killed the Bush party, and that represented departures from Reaganite traditionalism and conservatism, are:

First, the hubristic drive, despite the warnings of statesmen like George Kennan, to exploit our Cold War victory and pursue a policy of permanent containment of a Russia that had lost a third of its territory and half its people.

We moved NATO into Eastern Europe and the Baltic, onto her doorstep. We abrogated the ABM treaty Nixon had negotiated and moved defensive missiles into Poland. John McCain pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO, and even to send U.S. forces to face off against Russian troops.

Thus we got a second Cold War that need never have begun and that our allies seem content to let us fight alone.

Europe today is not afraid of Vladimir Putin reaching the Rhine. Europe is afraid of Africa and the Middle East reaching the Danube.

[...]

Second, in a reflexive response to 9/11, we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, dumped over the regime in Libya, armed rebels to overthrow Bashar Assad in Syria, and backed Saudi intervention in a Yemeni civil war, creating a humanitarian crisis in that poorest of Arab countries that is exceeded in horrors only by the Syrian civil war.

Since Y2K, hundreds of thousands in the Middle East have perished, the ancient Christian community has all but ceased to exist, and the refugees now number in the millions. What are the gains for democracy from these wars, all backed enthusiastically by the Republican establishment?

Why are the people responsible for these wars still being listened to, rather than confessing their sins at second-thoughts conferences?

[...]

The old GOP needed to burn to the ground. Meanwhile, the Dems are engaged in a Civil War that has completely alienated the center.

Honestly, can't see how President Trump ISN'T re-elected at this point.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Heh. You need to read more Pat Buchanan:



The old GOP needed to burn to the ground. Meanwhile, the Dems are engaged in a Civil War that has completely alienated the center.

Honestly, can't see how President Trump ISN'T re-elected at this point.

Good old Pat. Each of the first two paragraphs contained a gigantic strawman. No need to read any further.

[Northwestcoug]

Heh. You need to read more Pat Buchanan:



The old GOP needed to burn to the ground. Meanwhile, the Dems are engaged in a Civil War that has completely alienated the center.

Honestly, can't see how President Trump ISN'T re-elected at this point.

Reading another demagogue?!? No thanks. There has to be a better paleoconservative you can recommend than Pat Buchanan.

[frank ryan]

Attacking a respected former President for his charity work? Seriously? Who can defend that? Trump is a piece of garbage.

That former POTUS had the nerve to vote for Killary!

[Jeff Lebowski]

That former POTUS had the nerve to vote for Killary!

Ah... Good times.

[BlueK]

The left went into a total meltdown and end-of-the-world hysteria when Kennedy announced his retirement. They understand the stakes. Don't tell me appointing 2 Supreme Court justices (maybe more) isn't worth it. Their impact will last decades. Trump will be out in 2-6 years.

NEWS FLASH: McMullin is a joke.

McMullin would have given you conservative Supreme Court justices and deregulation without dopey recession-attracting trade policy or damaging the relationships we have with friendly countries. He would have done all the conservative governance stuff you're talking about at least as well as Trump without the offensive stuff. Even the argument that we didn't want a neocon who would get into war holds no water anymore given that Trump luckily by a fluke and because of Michael Flynn's troubles didn't get into war with Iran practically in the first week of his presidency and wanted to attack Venezuela of all places. Do you have a more logical argument about how much less of a joke Trump is, other than an insult?

[Crockett]

McMullin would have given you conservative Supreme Court justices and deregulation without dopey recession-attracting trade policy or damaging the relationships we have with friendly countries. He would have done all the conservative governance stuff you're talking about at least as well as Trump without the offensive stuff. Even the argument that we didn't want a neocon who would get into war holds no water anymore given that Trump luckily by a fluke and because of Michael Flynn's troubles didn't get into war with Iran practically in the first week of his presidency and wanted to attack Venezuela of all places. Do you have a more logical argument about how much less of a joke Trump is, other than an insult?

If it was McMullin vs Hillary, then yes I would have voted for him. I listened to several interviews of him and I agreed with a lot of things he said.

The EM is a "joke" has to do with the fact that he mysteriously showed up very late in the game and had no chance, yet a bunch of Utahans were jumpin on the bandwagon. He had the potential to be the next Ross Perot: split the vote and give a Clinton the win. And even more so how he has treated his campaign staffers in the aftermath of his campaign: link. Stiffed a bunch of staffers a lot of money and accumulated a bunch of unpaid debt he has no intention of paying.

[CardiacCoug]

Do you think Trump is governed by scruples? Do you think his actions are informed by a sense of right and wrong? This is a guy that said he would kill the families of suspected terrorists. This is a guy who said he respected Putin and defended Putin's murderous actions by saying that the U.S. isn't innocent either, that we've killed people as well. Trump is a sociopath. Of that, I'm certain. Not only is he a sociopath, he's a sociopath with a mandate. What part of that do you disagree with?

Yep — the best summation of Trump I have read is “Malevolence tempered only by incompetence.”

[Walter Sobchak]

Good old Pat. Each of the first two paragraphs contained a gigantic strawman. No need to read any further.

Can you point those out for me please?

With never-Trump conservatives bailing on the GOP and crying out for the Party of Pelosi to save us, some painful truths need to be restated.

Direct reference to Steve ("I left the Republican Party. Now I want Democrats to take over.") Schmidt. BlueK just barely shared that WaPo Max Boot piece like on the last page(?). Surprised you missed it. But I get it... BlueK signal to noise ratio is very low.

The Republican Party of Bush I and II, of Bob Dole and John McCain, is history. It’s not coming back. Unlike the Bourbons after the Revolution and the Terror, after Napoleon and the Empire, no restoration is in the cards.

Where is the strawman here? Is it wishful thinking? Certainly.

Reading another demagogue?!? No thanks. There has to be a better paleoconservative you can recommend than Pat Buchanan.

Not sure what you mean since this is still true.

[frank ryan]

Those fearful of neocons should be concerned that the founder and former CEO of Blackwater is one of Trump’s besties. He's already tried to push Trump to sign up some expensive mercenaries. That along with Bolton’s presence in his administration hardly make Trump the Green Party foreign policy guy Walter and others hope for.

[BlueK]

If it was McMullin vs Hillary, then yes I would have voted for him. I listened to several interviews of him and I agreed with a lot of things he said.

The EM is a "joke" has to do with the fact that he mysteriously showed up very late in the game and had no chance, yet a bunch of Utahans were jumpin on the bandwagon. He had the potential to be the next Ross Perot: split the vote and give a Clinton the win. And even more so how he has treated his campaign staffers in the aftermath of his campaign: link. Stiffed a bunch of staffers a lot of money and accumulated a bunch of unpaid debt he has no intention of paying.

Disturbing about him if true. But he's not in charge of the country.

Still no less disturbing that Trump is representing the United States in a meeting with only Putin and an interpreter in the room.

[BlueK]

Direct reference to Steve ("I left the Republican Party. Now I want Democrats to take over.") Schmidt. BlueK just barely shared that WaPo Max Boot piece like on the last page(?). Surprised you missed it. But I get it... BlueK signal to noise ratio is very low.

LOL. You sure seem to notice every last thing I say.

[Walter Sobchak]

Still no less disturbing that Trump is representing the United States in a meeting with only Putin and an interpreter in the room.

FYI, Putin speaks perfect English. The interpreter is probably there only to instantiate the posthypnotic trigger.

LOL. You sure seem to notice every last thing I say.

I give you the benefit of the doubt... and every damn day you disappoint me.

[Walter Sobchak]

That along with Bolton’s presence in his administration hardly make Trump the Green Party foreign policy guy Walter and others hope for.

I've shared my opinion on this twice now in this godforsaken thread; the second time was just 4 days ago.

If you are having trouble, then run this shell parameter substitution pattern on the post(s):

^Elliott Abrams^John Bolton

I thought that part was obvious.