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Thread: President Trump: Making America Great Again...

  1. #7801

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    --would love to invade the Baltics and bring home those rogues as part of Putin's stated goal of restoring the glory of the CCCP.
    Oh yeah, forgot that they breached Estonian territory and abducted an Estonian intelligence officer. I guess to some America is an evil imperialist and blood thirsty country while Russia is just your average nation.

    In terms of Ukraine, let’s not forget they shot down a civilian airliner.
    Last edited by frank ryan; 07-05-2018 at 05:58 PM.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  2. #7802
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    I'll put out some suggestions from the article that I shared.

    First and foremost... the article explains that compromise is inevitable, yet will still require respect for both nationsí interests.

    Or in other words, the bipartisan Russia fear-mongering here in the US has just got to end. It's gotten beyond stupid. "Russiaís critics present a long bill of requirements to be met before they would relax sanctions or otherwise improve relations. Putin could save time by agreeing to be an American vassal."

    1. End the Russia sanctions, they accomplish nothing.
    2. Trump and Putin could make a bilateral commitment to stay out of other nationsí elections.
    3. The two presidents should agree to mutual forbearance on supporting war (e.g. stop fucking with other countries; Russia w/ Ukraine, the US w/ {insert long list here})
    4. Trump should propose that both countries withdraw from Syria.
    5. addressing the faltering Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty
    6. revisiting the soon-expiring Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty
    End Russia sanctions because they accomplish nothing? Even if true they at least have symbolic value and should not be ended unilaterally.

    A lateral commitment to stay out of each others' elections (at least if you define being IN each others' elections as the media seems to define the Russian involvement in 2016). That's funny. They could also make an equally likely-to-be-maintained bi-lateral commitment to stop sleeping.

    I see no equivalence between what the Russians did in Ukraine and what we are doing anywhere else right now. You are offering too much here for too little, even in a real politik analysis.

    Both countries withdraw from Syria? Maybe, but the devil there is in the not so little details. Advisors? Arms sales? citizen mercenaries? Enforcement/verification? dealing with incursions from ISIS on Syrian territory?

    Addressing the treaties? It needs to be done. But not by Trump. I don't trust him to even understand them, let alone negotiate extensions or enhancements.

    I agree with you about the fear mongering. A lot of it is overwrought nonsense (And with that Frank Ryan sends my name to Mueller as a possible subject for investigation). But just because we are being stupid about the Russians' doesn't mean they aren't out to get us, and we should still be very wary.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  3. #7803
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    End Russia sanctions because they accomplish nothing? Even if true they at least have symbolic value and should not be ended unilaterally.

    A lateral commitment to stay out of each others' elections (at least if you define being IN each others' elections as the media seems to define the Russian involvement in 2016). That's funny. They could also make an equally likely-to-be-maintained bi-lateral commitment to stop sleeping.
    So the former can be symbolic but the latter cannot be? Oh, brother. US meddling to get Yelstin elected was such a source of pride it was featured as a TIME cover page, remember?


    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    I see no equivalence between what the Russians did in Ukraine and what we are doing anywhere else right now. You are offering too much here for too little, even in a real politik analysis.
    Hey Mr. Putin sir, please stop occupying Crimea. Oh, why do we not leave Iraq and Afghanistan you ask? Well, it's complicated. Oh, and don't mind the permanent US military bases we have built there.

    Uh, yeah.


    Quote Originally Posted by creekster
    Both countries withdraw from Syria? Maybe, but the devil there is in the not so little details. Advisors? Arms sales? citizen mercenaries? Enforcement/verification? dealing with incursions from ISIS on Syrian territory?
    Well the US should withdraw unilaterally. If Trump can get Putin to come along too... great. If not, NBD. We have no business being there as there no security threat to the US in Syria. Russia probably won't go along with this as they have been allies with Syria for a long, long time. At least longer than we were allied with Saddam, amirite?


    Addressing the treaties? It needs to be done. But not by Trump. I don't trust him to even understand them, let alone negotiate extensions or enhancements.
    It's an agenda item and starts a dialogue. The details can be ironed out by others.


    I agree with you about the fear mongering. A lot of it is overwrought nonsense (And with that Frank Ryan sends my name to Mueller as a possible subject for investigation). But just because we are being stupid about the Russians' doesn't mean they aren't out to get us, and we should still be very wary.
    Agree. However, the scare tactics work, so I doubt the rhetoric will de-escalate. Trump uses the scare tactics by exploiting immigrants. The Dems use the scare tactics by exploiting Putin/Russians.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

    You furnish the pictures, and Iíll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

  4. #7804

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    End Russia sanctions because they accomplish nothing? Even if true they at least have symbolic value and should not be ended unilaterally.

    A lateral commitment to stay out of each others' elections (at least if you define being IN each others' elections as the media seems to define the Russian involvement in 2016). That's funny. They could also make an equally likely-to-be-maintained bi-lateral commitment to stop sleeping.

    I see no equivalence between what the Russians did in Ukraine and what we are doing anywhere else right now. You are offering too much here for too little, even in a real politik analysis.

    Both countries withdraw from Syria? Maybe, but the devil there is in the not so little details. Advisors? Arms sales? citizen mercenaries? Enforcement/verification? dealing with incursions from ISIS on Syrian territory?

    Addressing the treaties? It needs to be done. But not by Trump. I don't trust him to even understand them, let alone negotiate extensions or enhancements.

    I agree with you about the fear mongering. A lot of it is overwrought nonsense (And with that Frank Ryan sends my name to Mueller as a possible subject for investigation). But just because we are being stupid about the Russians' doesn't mean they aren't out to get us, and we should still be very wary.
    Nice dig. I think there is a lot more evidence that thinking no shenanigans happened between Russia and Trump is foolish than being extremely worried or confident that something is.

    And some things don’t add to the evidence they are colluded but are concerning like the fact Trump never held a cabinet meeting to address Russian interference in the election, fired the national cybe-security advisor and did not appointment a replacement, constantly putting forward a pro-Russian line while aggresssivey insulting our trusted allies and insists on meeting Putin alone.

    Not being worried or suspicious isn’t reasoned skepticism, it’s foolish.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  5. #7805

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Nice dig. I think there is a lot more evidence that thinking no shenanigans happened between Russia and Trump is foolish than being extremely worried or confident that something is.

    And some things don’t add to the evidence they are colluded but are concerning like the fact Trump never held a cabinet meeting to address Russian interference in the election, fired the national cybe-security advisor and did not appointment a replacement, constantly putting forward a pro-Russian line while aggresssivey insulting our trusted allies and insists on meeting Putin alone.

    Not being worried or suspicious isn’t reasoned skepticism, it’s foolish.
    If Obama acted like this around Russia and Putin and N. Korea, for that matter, the Republicans would be freaking out. It's silly to try to pretend otherwise.

  6. #7806
    Explosivo Commando's Avatar
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    Trump doubles down on being a sex offender as a way of life. MAGA!
    "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

  7. #7807
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Trump doubles down on being a sex offender as a way of life. MAGA!
    That speech/rally yesterday was a clinic on how to degrade the office of POTUS. Good grief, he even mocked Bush Senior's Thousand Point of Light campaign. Unreal.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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  8. #7808

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    That speech/rally yesterday was a clinic on how to degrade the office of POTUS. Good grief, he even mocked Bush Senior's Thousand Point of Light campaign. Unreal.
    Nothing to see here. He nominates conservative justices.

    On MSNBC Evan McMullin just said Trump himself is a national security threat. sound the apocalyptic alarm.
    Last edited by BlueK; 07-06-2018 at 02:15 PM.

  9. #7809

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    That speech/rally yesterday was a clinic on how to degrade the office of POTUS. Good grief, he even mocked Bush Senior's Thousand Point of Light campaign. Unreal.
    He is, by any measure, not a good person.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  10. #7810

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    Nothing to see here. He nominates conservative justices.

    On MSNBC Evan McMullin just said Trump himself is a national security threat. sound the apocalyptic alarm.
    Walter or Ted or someone will call you apocolyptic or paranoid.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  11. #7811

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    Attacking a respected former President for his charity work? Seriously? Who can defend that? Trump is a piece of garbage.

  12. #7812
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    Nothing to see here. He nominates conservative justices.

    On MSNBC Evan McMullin just said Trump himself is a national security threat. sound the apocalyptic alarm.
    The left went into a total meltdown and end-of-the-world hysteria when Kennedy announced his retirement. They understand the stakes. Don't tell me appointing 2 Supreme Court justices (maybe more) isn't worth it. Their impact will last decades. Trump will be out in 2-6 years.

    NEWS FLASH: McMullin is a joke.

  13. #7813
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    It continues to be bizarre that you view Trump as a misunderstood conservative when he is a populist authoritarian strongman, act as though he is restrained by reasonable advisors, and screech when your constant inaccurate parallels between Obama and others to Trump are pointed out. You're not a picked on truth-teller here, you're under informed. Commando is a moderately conservative immigration attorney.
    Your post is bizarre. I don't claim Trump to be a misunderstood conservative. I agree he is a populist. I do think he is governing largely as a conservative tho, with some exceptions (including trade policy).

    BTW, which inaccurate parallels have been pointed out?

  14. #7814
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
    Do you think Trump is governed by scruples? Do you think his actions are informed by a sense of right and wrong? This is a guy that said he would kill the families of suspected terrorists. This is a guy who said he respected Putin and defended Putin's murderous actions by saying that the U.S. isn't innocent either, that we've killed people as well. Trump is a sociopath. Of that, I'm certain. Not only is he a sociopath, he's a sociopath with a mandate. What part of that do you disagree with?
    This is the sound of the goalposts moving.

    Thank you for your diagnosis, Dr.

  15. #7815
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    They're totally going to make out like in that mural.

  16. #7816

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    Nothing is worth the price of a Trump presidency, certainly not Crockett's hyped-up conservative wins. He is an immoral demagogue who debases both the US presidency and the notion of American excellence. Not to mention humanity in general. Before he is through, the myth of the republican party as a bastion of Reagan-esque conservative ideals will cease to exist (if it hasn't already been destroyed). We can only hope that we'll see a serious national party that can counter-balance the democrats again in our lifetimes.

  17. #7817
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Nothing is worth the price of a Trump presidency, certainly not Crockett's hyped-up conservative wins. He is an immoral demagogue who debases both the US presidency and the notion of American excellence. Not to mention humanity in general. Before he is through, the myth of the republican party as a bastion of Reagan-esque conservative ideals will cease to exist (if it hasn't already been destroyed). We can only hope that we'll see a serious national party that can counter-balance the democrats again in our lifetimes.
    Heh. You need to read more Pat Buchanan:

    With never-Trump conservatives bailing on the GOP and crying out for the Party of Pelosi to save us, some painful truths need to be restated.

    The Republican Party of Bush I and II, of Bob Dole and John McCain, is history. It’s not coming back. Unlike the Bourbons after the Revolution and the Terror, after Napoleon and the Empire, no restoration is in the cards.

    It is over. The GOP’s policies of recent decades — the New World Order of George H.W. Bush, the crusades for democracy of Bush II — failed, and are seen as having failed. With Trump’s capture of the party they were repudiated.

    There will be no turning back.

    [...]

    The failures that killed the Bush party, and that represented departures from Reaganite traditionalism and conservatism, are:

    First, the hubristic drive, despite the warnings of statesmen like George Kennan, to exploit our Cold War victory and pursue a policy of permanent containment of a Russia that had lost a third of its territory and half its people.

    We moved NATO into Eastern Europe and the Baltic, onto her doorstep. We abrogated the ABM treaty Nixon had negotiated and moved defensive missiles into Poland. John McCain pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO, and even to send U.S. forces to face off against Russian troops.

    Thus we got a second Cold War that need never have begun and that our allies seem content to let us fight alone.

    Europe today is not afraid of Vladimir Putin reaching the Rhine. Europe is afraid of Africa and the Middle East reaching the Danube.

    [...]

    Second, in a reflexive response to 9/11, we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, dumped over the regime in Libya, armed rebels to overthrow Bashar Assad in Syria, and backed Saudi intervention in a Yemeni civil war, creating a humanitarian crisis in that poorest of Arab countries that is exceeded in horrors only by the Syrian civil war.

    Since Y2K, hundreds of thousands in the Middle East have perished, the ancient Christian community has all but ceased to exist, and the refugees now number in the millions. What are the gains for democracy from these wars, all backed enthusiastically by the Republican establishment?

    Why are the people responsible for these wars still being listened to, rather than confessing their sins at second-thoughts conferences?

    [...]
    The old GOP needed to burn to the ground. Meanwhile, the Dems are engaged in a Civil War that has completely alienated the center.

    Honestly, can't see how President Trump ISN'T re-elected at this point.
    Last edited by Walter Sobchak; 07-06-2018 at 04:26 PM.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

    You furnish the pictures, and Iíll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

  18. #7818
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Heh. You need to read more Pat Buchanan:



    The old GOP needed to burn to the ground. Meanwhile, the Dems are engaged in a Civil War that has completely alienated the center.

    Honestly, can't see how President Trump ISN'T re-elected at this point.
    Good old Pat. Each of the first two paragraphs contained a gigantic strawman. No need to read any further.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  19. #7819

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Heh. You need to read more Pat Buchanan:



    The old GOP needed to burn to the ground. Meanwhile, the Dems are engaged in a Civil War that has completely alienated the center.

    Honestly, can't see how President Trump ISN'T re-elected at this point.
    Reading another demagogue?!? No thanks. There has to be a better paleoconservative you can recommend than Pat Buchanan.

  20. #7820

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    Attacking a respected former President for his charity work? Seriously? Who can defend that? Trump is a piece of garbage.
    That former POTUS had the nerve to vote for Killary!
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  21. #7821
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    That former POTUS had the nerve to vote for Killary!
    Ah... Good times.

    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  22. #7822

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    The left went into a total meltdown and end-of-the-world hysteria when Kennedy announced his retirement. They understand the stakes. Don't tell me appointing 2 Supreme Court justices (maybe more) isn't worth it. Their impact will last decades. Trump will be out in 2-6 years.

    NEWS FLASH: McMullin is a joke.
    McMullin would have given you conservative Supreme Court justices and deregulation without dopey recession-attracting trade policy or damaging the relationships we have with friendly countries. He would have done all the conservative governance stuff you're talking about at least as well as Trump without the offensive stuff. Even the argument that we didn't want a neocon who would get into war holds no water anymore given that Trump luckily by a fluke and because of Michael Flynn's troubles didn't get into war with Iran practically in the first week of his presidency and wanted to attack Venezuela of all places. Do you have a more logical argument about how much less of a joke Trump is, other than an insult?
    Last edited by BlueK; 07-06-2018 at 06:48 PM.

  23. #7823
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    McMullin would have given you conservative Supreme Court justices and deregulation without dopey recession-attracting trade policy or damaging the relationships we have with friendly countries. He would have done all the conservative governance stuff you're talking about at least as well as Trump without the offensive stuff. Even the argument that we didn't want a neocon who would get into war holds no water anymore given that Trump luckily by a fluke and because of Michael Flynn's troubles didn't get into war with Iran practically in the first week of his presidency and wanted to attack Venezuela of all places. Do you have a more logical argument about how much less of a joke Trump is, other than an insult?
    If it was McMullin vs Hillary, then yes I would have voted for him. I listened to several interviews of him and I agreed with a lot of things he said.

    The EM is a "joke" has to do with the fact that he mysteriously showed up very late in the game and had no chance, yet a bunch of Utahans were jumpin on the bandwagon. He had the potential to be the next Ross Perot: split the vote and give a Clinton the win. And even more so how he has treated his campaign staffers in the aftermath of his campaign: link. Stiffed a bunch of staffers a lot of money and accumulated a bunch of unpaid debt he has no intention of paying.

  24. #7824
    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
    Do you think Trump is governed by scruples? Do you think his actions are informed by a sense of right and wrong? This is a guy that said he would kill the families of suspected terrorists. This is a guy who said he respected Putin and defended Putin's murderous actions by saying that the U.S. isn't innocent either, that we've killed people as well. Trump is a sociopath. Of that, I'm certain. Not only is he a sociopath, he's a sociopath with a mandate. What part of that do you disagree with?
    Yep ó the best summation of Trump I have read is ďMalevolence tempered only by incompetence.Ē

  25. #7825
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Good old Pat. Each of the first two paragraphs contained a gigantic strawman. No need to read any further.
    Can you point those out for me please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Buchanan in ∂ 1
    With never-Trump conservatives bailing on the GOP and crying out for the Party of Pelosi to save us, some painful truths need to be restated.
    Direct reference to Steve ("I left the Republican Party. Now I want Democrats to take over.") Schmidt. BlueK just barely shared that WaPo Max Boot piece like on the last page(?). Surprised you missed it. But I get it... BlueK signal to noise ratio is very low.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Buchanan in ∂ 2
    The Republican Party of Bush I and II, of Bob Dole and John McCain, is history. It’s not coming back. Unlike the Bourbons after the Revolution and the Terror, after Napoleon and the Empire, no restoration is in the cards.
    Where is the strawman here? Is it wishful thinking? Certainly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Reading another demagogue?!? No thanks. There has to be a better paleoconservative you can recommend than Pat Buchanan.
    Not sure what you mean since this is still true.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

    You furnish the pictures, and Iíll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

  26. #7826

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    Those fearful of neocons should be concerned that the founder and former CEO of Blackwater is one of Trump’s besties. He's already tried to push Trump to sign up some expensive mercenaries. That along with Bolton’s presence in his administration hardly make Trump the Green Party foreign policy guy Walter and others hope for.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  27. #7827

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    If it was McMullin vs Hillary, then yes I would have voted for him. I listened to several interviews of him and I agreed with a lot of things he said.

    The EM is a "joke" has to do with the fact that he mysteriously showed up very late in the game and had no chance, yet a bunch of Utahans were jumpin on the bandwagon. He had the potential to be the next Ross Perot: split the vote and give a Clinton the win. And even more so how he has treated his campaign staffers in the aftermath of his campaign: link. Stiffed a bunch of staffers a lot of money and accumulated a bunch of unpaid debt he has no intention of paying.
    Disturbing about him if true. But he's not in charge of the country.

    Still no less disturbing that Trump is representing the United States in a meeting with only Putin and an interpreter in the room.

  28. #7828

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Direct reference to Steve ("I left the Republican Party. Now I want Democrats to take over.") Schmidt. BlueK just barely shared that WaPo Max Boot piece like on the last page(?). Surprised you missed it. But I get it... BlueK signal to noise ratio is very low.
    LOL. You sure seem to notice every last thing I say.

  29. #7829
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    Still no less disturbing that Trump is representing the United States in a meeting with only Putin and an interpreter in the room.
    FYI, Putin speaks perfect English. The interpreter is probably there only to instantiate the posthypnotic trigger.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    LOL. You sure seem to notice every last thing I say.
    I give you the benefit of the doubt... and every damn day you disappoint me.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

    You furnish the pictures, and Iíll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

  30. #7830
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    That along with Bolton’s presence in his administration hardly make Trump the Green Party foreign policy guy Walter and others hope for.
    I've shared my opinion on this twice now in this godforsaken thread; the second time was just 4 days ago.

    If you are having trouble, then run this shell parameter substitution pattern on the post(s):

    ^Elliott Abrams^John Bolton

    I thought that part was obvious.
    Last edited by Walter Sobchak; 07-06-2018 at 08:49 PM.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

    You furnish the pictures, and Iíll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

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