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Thread: President Trump: Making America Great Again...

  1. #7681

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    not all libertarians are isolationists.

  2. #7682

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    not all libertarians are isolationists.
    Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan are not economic geniuses. Following their advice would be a good way to damage the economy. New World Order paranoia crap.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  3. #7683

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan are not economic geniuses. Following their advice would be a good way to damage the economy. New World Order paranoia crap.
    There is more than one way to be a libertarian. You don't have to go down the conspiracy theory/isolationist path.


    Alternate view to Trump's trade ideas from a libertarian source:

    https://www.cato.org/publications/co...ngry-misguided
    Last edited by BlueK; 06-29-2018 at 08:30 AM.

  4. #7684

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    There is more than one way to be a libertarian. You don't have to go down the conspiracy theory/isolationist path.


    Alternate view to Trump's trade ideas from a libertarian source:

    https://www.cato.org/publications/co...ngry-misguided

    I don’t disagree. It’s a shame Ron Paul, with his racist newsletter and all, became the mascot for Libertarianism. He became internet popular and a lot of nerdy white guys got to feel cool and edgy for supporting him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    There is more than one way to be a libertarian. You don't have to go down the conspiracy theory/isolationist path.


    Alternate view to Trump's trade ideas from a libertarian source:

    https://www.cato.org/publications/co...ngry-misguided
    That's a very good article.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Trump has been far more hostile to the press. Can't believe that is even a point of debate.
    This illustrates a part of the divide over Trump. Words certainly matter, but less so with Trump. He's a self-congratulating, self-promoting blowhard that says a lot of things. So i largely tune that out. It's not very presidential, but I judge him on what he actually does and the results. If you don't listen to what Trump says and you look at the record, then I think he's making a lot of progress on a lot of conservative goals.

    When it comes to press freedoms I take the same approach. I care FAR more about what Trump does versus what he says. That's why I think Obama was worse than Trump and why I think it is a fair point of debate. Obama could smile and tell you "most transparent administration ever" but it was a total lie and he was extremely aggressive against whistleblowers and leaks to established journalists. Obama's actions were far more destructive to press freedom than Trump's words. That's not to say that I support what Trump has said towards the press. I also don't have a problem with him calling out fake news when it's legitimately so, and frequently there has been fake news (like yesterday many in the press blamed Trump for the Maryland shooting before the facts came out that the shooting was a vendetta a long time coming).

  7. #7687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    FAKE NEWS-- first of all f*k that term that he coined. He called Fox News "not fake news" because they only report on how rich he is and how large his hands are, apparently. And Trump proclaiming that we should turn away asylum seekers at the border with no judges, no court? Clear unilateral violation of U.S. and international law. All the chants to "lock her up" and continuing to have pep rallies for no discernible reason like Fidel Castro? OH pointing back at the media and proclaiming them to be, to raucous applause from his followers, to be "the real enemy of the people?" Are you serious with this shit? Exercising his pardon power to get his political allies off the hook WAYYYYY outside the regular protocol - as in BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN SENTENCED? And decimating our relationships with our strongest allies, trading partners and neighbors while keeping his tongue firmly planted up Putin's rectum? Oh how about the f*king MILITARY PARADE they are ramping up to have in his honor? Trump can eat 12 dicks. Not sorry.
    See my response to JL just above this post. Yeah, I am serious.

    Trump didn't coin fake news, but he certainly likes to use it. And often he was not wrong (here's a recent one). There are many examples of the press getting it wrong because they so bad want to get back at Trump.

    I'm not an expert on immigration law, but I know non-citizens don't have the same rights as citizens. Many on this issue don't want him to enforce the existing laws, and apparently you want to pick and choose which laws to follow to suit your political views.

    Has Hillary been locked up? Is Hillary being prosecuted? She clearly broke the law, but it looks like she will get away with it. As far as I can see, there is no evidence of Trump using the power of the federal govt to go after political enemies. Obama did though. The weaponized IRS is an egregious example.

    And down the memory hole go Obama statements like: "If they [the GOP] bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun," he said during a fundraiser in Philadelphia in June 2008. "Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I've seen Eagles fans." In 2009, Obama "joked" about auditing his enemies. "I want you to talk to republicans and argue with them and get in their face."

    You have a problem with a military parade on Veteran's Day? It's not in Trump's honor. Sheesh. The French do one, too. Oh wait, they actually do have a history of dictators...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    You have a problem with a military parade on Veteran's Day? It's not in Trump's honor. Sheesh. The French do one, too. Oh wait, they actually do have a history of dictators...
    Bring the troops home from Korea (and Japan) and throw them a parade. Job well done!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    yeah, why would we want a president who understands the Constitution.

    In all seriousness, I do think it's a little troubling that having a president who just gets things done comes higher in the priority list for so many voters than one who knows and respects the Constitution.
    Of course I want a President who understands the constitution. BK, I think you and I are politically closer than you may think. You appear to be just more of a purist and I am more of a pragmatist when it comes to Trump. Again, the other option was Hillary and she doesn't respect the Constitution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    yeah, why would we want a president who understands the Constitution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    the other option was Hillary and she doesn't respect the Constitution.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay

    I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace, than to risk peace in pursuit of politics. --President Donald J. Trump

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Let me put it this way. I think that Trump has enough people working for him that do respect the constitution, that influence and direct policy, and that are conservative in this classical way, so that many of the policies that come out of the White House are indeed conservative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Let me put it this way. I think that Trump has enough people working for him that do respect the constitution, that influence and direct policy, and that are conservative in this classical way, so that many of the policies that come out of the White House are indeed conservative.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Oh brother. So all of the progress on conservative goals in a year and a half -- lower taxes, reduced regulation, less interventionist, support for the 2A, conservative supreme court nominees, reign in the EPA, roll back Obama executive orders, etc. -- has nothing to do with the administration?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Oh brother. So all of the progress on conservative goals in a year and a half -- lower taxes, reduced regulation, less interventionist, support for the 2A, conservative supreme court nominees, reign in the EPA, roll back Obama executive orders, etc. -- has nothing to do with the administration?
    Trump is not a conservative. He is a populist.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.29d222a5d491
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Trump is not a conservative. He is a populist.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.29d222a5d491
    Thank you for helping me make my point. As I said, it's the work of many influencers in his administration that are helping achieve conservative goals. Trump wouldn't do all of this on his own.

  16. #7696

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Trump is not a conservative. He is a populist.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.29d222a5d491
    Someone has been drinking the
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Thank you for helping me make my point. As I said, it's the work of many influencers in his administration that are helping achieve conservative goals. Trump wouldn't do all of this on his own.
    Weird response. Has anyone argued he is doing things on his own? Didn't I just say he is a populist?

    Sure, he has accomplished a few good things. And a bunch of bad things. This "he is an idiot but it's ok because he is surrounded by conservatives" line of thinking is delusional, IMO. He is doing plenty of damage.

    I sure hope those conservative movers and shakers stop this stupid trade war!
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post

    I'm not an expert on immigration law, but I know non-citizens don't have the same rights as citizens. Many on this issue don't want him to enforce the existing laws, and apparently you want to pick and choose which laws to follow to suit your political views.
    Oh you're not? Weird- because my fb feed is jam packed with newly minted immigration experts repeating Trump's talking points as though any one of you know wtf you're talking about. On one of my friends' feeds right now there is a g***mn FedEx worker arguing with about 5 immigration attorneys about Trump's child separation policy. He is firmly entrenched in his woefully ignorant and starkly wrong position, which to me about perfectly encapsulates arguing with a Trump supporter on anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post

    I'm not an expert on immigration law, but I know non-citizens don't have the same rights as citizens. Many on this issue don't want him to enforce the existing laws, and apparently you want to pick and choose which laws to follow to suit your political views.
    Really? Which rights are those? And are you distinguishing between lawful permanent residents and U.S. citizens, too? What about nonimmigrants? Or are you specifically talking about undocumented immigrants? As long as you are positive that you "know" something, be specific about it or don't even mention it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post

    I'm not an expert on immigration law, but I know non-citizens don't have the same rights as citizens. Many on this issue don't want him to enforce the existing laws, and apparently you want to pick and choose which laws to follow to suit your political views.
    Now this is the funny part. Do you understand that the government has finite resources, and that the "zero tolerance" policy (a purely political policy, if you care) is exhausting those resources by enforcing every single ticky tack misdemeanor entry without inspection so that other more serious offenses at the border cannot be enforced? Why would he do that? Gee- it's almost as though it's purely to separate families at the border to discourage asylum applicants like a f*king monster. Reminds me of when Sheriff Joe decided to start enforcing immigration laws- using your same impeccable argument that all laws must be enforced, by the way- and "forgot" to prosecute thousands of child sex abuse cases in Maricopa County. Whoops. And back to the subject I brought up: Trump is literally trying to circumvent due process for asylum applicants, and if he can't do it, he'll change the law to do it. Sounds normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post

    And down the memory hole go Obama statements like: "If they [the GOP] bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun," he said during a fundraiser in Philadelphia in June 2008. "Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl.
    OH NOES!!! Yeah Obama's facetious comments are just a bit different than Trump instructing his zombies to kick protesters' asses and promising to pay their legal bills, and lamenting the 'old days' when protesters got beaten within an inch of their lives, etc. What a loser.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    You have a problem with a military parade on Veteran's Day? It's not in Trump's honor. Sheesh. The French do one, too. Oh wait, they actually do have a history of dictators...
    Yes I do have a problem with it. And of COURSE it's in Trump's honor. If he had any honor for vets he would fix the shitshow that is Veteran's Affairs and not spend a dime on a stupid military parade that countries with shitty militaries have to put on to convince themselves they are powerful. I watched a military exercise in Guatemala and all I could think was "whoopdie fricking doo." We are America- let's act like we have some self-esteem. Why do we have to have a military parade? It's almost like Trump can't help but telegraph how minuscule his orange wee wee is.
    "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

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    I love you, Commando.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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    This asshole can't stop lying. I wonder if he knows that MS-13 is an American gang that terrorizes undocumented immigrants.... kind of like ICE, now that I think about it...



    "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

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    Abolish ICE?

    ICE will just be replaced by the next immigration enforcement department.

    Funny how the dems are using the repub playbook.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  22. #7702

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Abolish ICE?

    ICE will just be replaced by the next immigration enforcement department.

    Funny how the dems are using the repub playbook.

    I’ll help you out. It’s more the position that ICE as a specific organization needs to be disbanded and not that there be no organisation to do the job. They feel the current agency leadership and current is corrupt and compromised that the agency needs to be scrapped.

    Now the current GOP playbook is to win, and appoint people to destroy and act against the missions of agencies that are philosophically problematic.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    I’ll help you out. It’s more the position that ICE as a specific organization needs to be disbanded and not that there be no organisation to do the job. They feel the current agency leadership and current is corrupt and compromised that the agency needs to be scrapped.
    I think that’s a dumb position and I don’t support it. However, it’s not dumb enough to make me vote against the dems/resistance.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  24. #7704

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I think that’s a dumb position and I don’t support it. However, it’s not dumb enough to make me vote against the dems/resistance.
    It seems like an emotional one. I support a leadership change at the agency but nuking the whole thing and creating a new one isn’t realistic. Commando can correct me, but I think much of this problem has been because of Justice depart. instructions, although there have been recent cases of ICE ignoring the need for warrents etc and abuse of children.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    It seems like an emotional one. I support a leadership change at the agency but nuking the whole thing and creating a new one isn’t realistic. Commando can correct me, but I think much of this problem has been because of Justice depart. instructions, although there have been recent cases of ICE ignoring the need for warrents etc and abuse of children.
    ICE serves at the pleasure of the President, basically, and their whole thing for the past 2 years has been a joke. The head of ICE gets on the podium and lies like Sarah Huckabee Sanders about who's a danger and what's a priority. They've been complicit in Trump's anti-immigrant propaganda (getting victims of crimes committed by immigrants on a stage, pumping up the threat of MS13, etc) There is not even an attempt to pretend they are an independent agency (which they're not, but we would feel better if they did have a clear, non-political mandate) -- they are basically Trump's mini-Gestapo, if that term isn't too offensive to los sensitivos. ICE endorsed Trump when he was running. WTF? Not surprisingly, when Trump took office he cranked up funding and hiring of ICE agents so that basically everybody got a promotion. Then, when Trump wiped out Obama's carefully curated set of priorities for immigration enforcement he declared open season on the low-hanging fruit: grandmas, sick children, and other non-criminal aliens who could be quickly and easily snatched up by ICE. There's a different established anti-trafficking sector of ICE who have formally petitioned to not be affiliated with detention and removal operations. That's how big of an embarrassment they've been. I'm not sure the solution is to "abolish" ICE, but we sure wouldn't miss em.
    "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Oh you're not? Weird- because my fb feed is jam packed with newly minted immigration experts repeating Trump's talking points as though any one of you know wtf you're talking about. On one of my friends' feeds right now there is a g***mn FedEx worker arguing with about 5 immigration attorneys about Trump's child separation policy. He is firmly entrenched in his woefully ignorant and starkly wrong position, which to me about perfectly encapsulates arguing with a Trump supporter on anything.
    Have I been arguing immigration law on here? Don't assume I'm the same as some people on your or your friends' facebook feeds. You may think you know me and lump me in with others, but I'm not some blind Trump supporter. I fall in the Mitt Romney and / or Ben Shapiro camp -- I'm pleased with and will support Trump's progress on conservative goals and policies, but will not hesitate to criticize and NOT support stuff when it's wrong. I don't automatically assume the best or the worst with him. I much preferred other candidates over Trump, but I have no regrets having him as president versus Hillary. That was the choice.

    BTW, are you for open borders? Should anyone who wants to move here be allowed to? If not, we can probably get close to agreeing with one another. As you said, there are finite resources. We can't absorb everyone that might want to move here. I'm not for completely closed borders. I very much sympathize with the plight of people seeking a better life here. I don't think immigration should be merit-based only. I would support a system that allows not only legitimate asylum-seekers, but also people that just want a better life. Maybe that's a lottery, maybe there is a better way. I would support a guest worker program that allows some people to come and go legally. I'm not totally aligned with Trump on border issues, but I do think we need to enforce our borders and know who is coming and going. Other countries do so, but when the US does then we are horrible, apparently.

    Also, I'd like people to recognize the genuine difficulty and nuance of the immigration matter, without going full blast and calling everyone monsters. There are significant numbers of adults traveling with children that they are not related to. There is some human trafficking going on. How do we protect children in those situations? Separation is sometimes appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Really? Which rights are those? And are you distinguishing between lawful permanent residents and U.S. citizens, too? What about nonimmigrants? Or are you specifically talking about undocumented immigrants? As long as you are positive that you "know" something, be specific about it or don't even mention it.
    I'm not on here arguing immigration law so chill out. It's as if you are taking your facebook feed anger and directing it at me now that you are on an anonymous board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Now this is the funny part. Do you understand that the government has finite resources, and that the "zero tolerance" policy (a purely political policy, if you care) is exhausting those resources by enforcing every single ticky tack misdemeanor entry without inspection so that other more serious offenses at the border cannot be enforced? Why would he do that? Gee- it's almost as though it's purely to separate families at the border to discourage asylum applicants like a f*king monster. Reminds me of when Sheriff Joe decided to start enforcing immigration laws- using your same impeccable argument that all laws must be enforced, by the way- and "forgot" to prosecute thousands of child sex abuse cases in Maricopa County. Whoops. And back to the subject I brought up: Trump is literally trying to circumvent due process for asylum applicants, and if he can't do it, he'll change the law to do it. Sounds normal.
    Sure, you are right here. We do have finite resources. Enforcement is a choice, but unless you are for open borders, the matter is more complicated and nuanced than just calling other people monsters. This article seems like a reasonable overview of the matter to me. You hate Trump already, so you seem to view everything he does in the worst possible, most sinister way.

    But hey, it all appears to be okay when Democrats do it, though.

    Clinton:



    Obama:



    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    OH NOES!!! Yeah Obama's facetious comments are just a bit different than Trump instructing his zombies to kick protesters' asses and promising to pay their legal bills, and lamenting the 'old days' when protesters got beaten within an inch of their lives, etc. What a loser.
    Trump shouldn't have said that, but the Democrats are plenty guilty here. They just send their SEIU goons to do their dirty work for them and beat up republican protesters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Yes I do have a problem with it. And of COURSE it's in Trump's honor. If he had any honor for vets he would fix the shitshow that is Veteran's Affairs and not spend a dime on a stupid military parade that countries with shitty militaries have to put on to convince themselves they are powerful. I watched a military exercise in Guatemala and all I could think was "whoopdie fricking doo." We are America- let's act like we have some self-esteem. Why do we have to have a military parade? It's almost like Trump can't help but telegraph how minuscule his orange wee wee is.
    It's not an either or. Trump appears to making some progress with the VA, and has made more of an effort than his predecessor, but there is far more to do here. I do think the VA should be getting our best efforts.

    One last thing. I come here in peace. You don't have to get ragey to convince / have a discussion with me.

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    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I love you, Commando.
    You love an echo chamber, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post

    One last thing. I come here in peace. You don't have to get ragey to convince / have a discussion with me.
    Well I don't. I don't care what you think your stance on immigration is, it is apparently heavily informed by conservative platform builders and they are dishonest. We don't have to have a discussion- you just need to know that you are under-informed. Do what you will with that information.
    "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

  29. #7709

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Abolish ICE?

    ICE will just be replaced by the next immigration enforcement department.

    Funny how the dems are using the repub playbook.
    Maybe they can rename it "NICE"? Would that placate democrats?

  30. #7710
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Well I don't. I don't care what you think your stance on immigration is, it is apparently heavily informed by conservative platform builders and they are dishonest. We don't have to have a discussion- you just need to know that you are under-informed. Do what you will with that information.
    Okay, good to know. Thanks for the heads up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    Well I don't. I don't care what you think your stance on immigration is, it is apparently heavily informed by conservative platform builders and they are dishonest. We don't have to have a discussion- you just need to know that you are under-informed. Do what you will with that information.
    That reminds me of something you once said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Commando View Post
    As long as you are positive that you "know" something, be specific about it or don't even mention it.

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