Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Question for believers

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Question for believers

    If you believe the church is true because you have prayed and received a spiritual confirmation that it's true, how do you reconcile the fact that members of other churches pray to know if their churches are true and receive spiritual confirmation that they are as well?

    Do you just assume they DON'T pray about that--that it's a fool-proof experiment that God revealed to Moroni and if they WOULD pray to know the truth God would send them to Mormonism? Or maybe you think they do but because they haven't actually read and prayed about the BOM specifically yet they haven't been asking the right questions and thus aren't receiving the right answers? That once they DO read and pray about the BOM THEN they will see the gross error of their ways and it will all make sense?

    Rocks in hats, polyandry, lying, racism, sexism, homophobia, violence, etc all aside... this is a pretty important question to me personally. it might even be the crux of the whole matter. Because back when I assumed those things and DID trust the spiritual/emotional confirmations I had received, none of that other stuff bothered me (granted I was only aware of a handful of it, but still, I was pretty good at explaining it away because, hey, God had revealed to me the truth already--why should I doubt?). But now that I lack confidence in that method and that medium of arriving at truth and no longer trust that my spiritual experiences were really from God, that stuff DOES matter to me.

    Many of you have implied you've already thought through every doubt I could have possibly had at my tender young age of 32, and still came out shining on the other side. So if that's true, perhaps you can help me on this one. Why should I trust any "spiritual confirmation" that I've had that the Mormon church is true?
    Last edited by taekwondave; 08-17-2016, 01:06 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by taekwondave View Post
    If you believe the church is true because you have prayed and received a spiritual confirmation that it's true, how do you reconcile the fact that members of other churches pray to know if their churches are true and receive spiritual confirmation that they are as well?

    Do you just assume they DON'T pray about that--that it's a fool-proof experiment that God revealed to Moroni and if they WOULD pray to know the truth God would send them to Mormonism? Or maybe you think they do but because they haven't actually read and prayed about the BOM specifically yet they haven't been asking the right questions and thus aren't receiving the right answers? That once they DO read and pray about the BOM THEN they will see the gross error of their ways and it will all make sense?

    Rocks in hats, polyandry, lying, racism, sexism, homophobia, violence, etc all aside... this is a pretty important question to me personally. it might even be the crux of the whole matter. Because back when I assumed those things and DID trust the spiritual/emotional confirmations I had received, none of that other stuff bothered me (granted I was only aware of a handful of it, but still, I was pretty good at explaining it away because, hey, God had revealed to me the truth already--why should I doubt?). But now that I lack confidence in that method and that medium of arriving at truth and no longer trust that my spiritual experiences were really from God, that stuff DOES matter to me.

    Many of you have implied you've already thought through every doubt I could have possibly had at my tender young age of 32, and still came out shining on the other side. So if that's true, perhaps you can help me on this one. Why should I trust any "spiritual confirmation" that I've had that the Mormon church is true?
    You are doing it wrong.

    You are supposed to pray and ask "is it not true?"

    Please try again, return and report.
    *Banned*

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by taekwondave View Post
      If you believe the church is true because you have prayed and received a spiritual confirmation that it's true, how do you reconcile the fact that members of other churches pray to know if their churches are true and receive spiritual confirmation that they are as well?

      Do you just assume they DON'T pray about that--that it's a fool-proof experiment that God revealed to Moroni and if they WOULD pray to know the truth God would send them to Mormonism? Or maybe you think they do but because they haven't actually read and prayed about the BOM specifically yet they haven't been asking the right questions and thus aren't receiving the right answers? That once they DO read and pray about the BOM THEN they will see the gross error of their ways and it will all make sense?

      Rocks in hats, polyandry, lying, racism, sexism, homophobia, violence, etc all aside... this is a pretty important question to me personally. it might even be the crux of the whole matter. Because back when I assumed those things and DID trust the spiritual/emotional confirmations I had received, none of that other stuff bothered me (granted I was only aware of a handful of it, but still, I was pretty good at explaining it away because, hey, God had revealed to me the truth already--why should I doubt?). But now that I lack confidence in that method and that medium of arriving at truth and no longer trust that my spiritual experiences were really from God, that stuff DOES matter to me.

      Many of you have implied you've already thought through every doubt I could have possibly had at my tender young age of 32, and still came out shining on the other side. So if that's true, perhaps you can help me on this one. Why should I trust any "spiritual confirmation" that I've had that the Mormon church is true?
      I don't really care whether you do or you don't trust your spiritual confirmations, but I kinda think you are being a prick for asking this question. You aren't being sincere, nor are you actually willing to listen to what anyone has to offer you. You are merely looking for another avenue to be combative about the church and its teachings. If that is your goal, fine, have at it, but don't pose a question as if you are actually willing to engage in a conversation on the subject.

      Comment


      • #4
        Some people go to a movie and enjoy the experience. Maybe there is a moral to the story, maybe it was just pure entertainment. But the can suspend disbelief long enough to enjoy the movie.

        Other people go to a movie and just can't enjoy it. There is no way someone could jump and twist that way while shooting. A laser gun wouldn't really shoot like that/the real engine on a space ship wouldn't work like that. No one would really behave that way.

        I think we sometimes see the same thing with religion. Some people can take what they know/believe, and be OK recognizing that they don't know everything. There are details left out that they may never understand. And that's OK.

        Other people have to have an answer to every question. If there isn't an answer to a question, then it's all bunk.

        Some people can reconcile the existence of a loving God along with the idea that He lets bad things happen - even to good people. Even when they pray and ask for help or to remove the bad thing. Some people are OK with the concept of a prophet having human characteristics. Others feel like if the person is a prophet, well, then God ought to be there with him/her every step of the way and make sure no mistakes are made.

        I think your general approach to life carries a TON of weight in how you proceed when there are doubts or questions.

        Anyway - that's just my opinion. Chances are I'm wrong. And these probably aren't great examples to use. But they made sense in my mind.

        Comment


        • #5
          Religion provides comfort and happiness to many people. Does it surprise you that believers resist thinking about, or dwelling on inconsistencies and/or troubling history if they are enjoying their current life and they find comfort in the teachings of their faith? It shouldn't be surprising. What are you trying to accomplish in your deriding of believers by calling them ignorant, idiots or "insert your pet pejorative"? Are you trying to remove enjoyment and peace from their life? That's kind of a dick move. Its faith man, it can't be understood by logical proof or evidence because its just that, a belief in the absence of evidence, or even belief despite contrary evidence (in your opinion). You can keep presenting these dichotomies, and believers just won't care, or won't want to care, and that's ok. It really is, I promise.

          If believers are attacking you because of your lack of belief, I am sorry to hear that. I know it happens from time to time. I can promise you will be happier if you stop worrying about what others think about you, because they probably don't care what you think about them.
          Dyslexics are teople poo...

          Comment


          • #6
            What's wrong with people finding out their church is true? Does that invalidate Mormonism's truthfulness? Ultimately all the good people on the earth will be exalted as they receive the necessary ordinances either in this life or the next. It doesn't really matter when they receive them, just that they do.


            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
            "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

            Comment


            • #7
              just answering the first question because the post is simply tl;dr...

              because there is truth in many different churches. hope that helps.
              Last edited by smokymountainrain; 08-17-2016, 01:49 PM.
              I'm like LeBron James.
              -mpfunk

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by imanihonjin View Post
                I don't really care whether you do or you don't trust your spiritual confirmations, but I kinda think you are being a prick for asking this question. You aren't being sincere, nor are you actually willing to listen to what anyone has to offer you. You are merely looking for another avenue to be combative about the church and its teachings. If that is your goal, fine, have at it, but don't pose a question as if you are actually willing to engage in a conversation on the subject.
                Alright, don't answer.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've personally never met a Christian person who ever prayed specifically to know about whether their church is true, much less got an answer. They just don't seem to frame things that way. That's almost uniquely an LDS way of looking at things. Maybe they're out there, but I haven't ever encountered it. If they were to pray about a certain church, likely their protestant upbringing means they frame the question more around whether that's the right church for them (usually meaning the specific congregation, not the denomination). If they got a yes answer to that I'd say great. Whenever I have talked with someone who expresses some personal revelation or spiritual experience they had, I just express joy in the experience with them and thank them for sharing with me, regardless of what church they attend. And if they said they prayed about their church I'd assume God led them to where they are for a reason and leave it at that. So what. I guess maybe it doesn't bother me in the least because I don't think of my own LDS faith the way you assume all LDS must think of theirs. But you do seem a little like my mother in law. I've commented to my wife before that sometimes it feels to me like she and I aren't in the same religion, although in name I guess we are. She's also extremely black and white, and superficial, in my view. But whatever. I guess we all try to do the best we can.
                  Last edited by BlueK; 08-17-2016, 01:57 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    tkd why are you so full of angst bro? nothing good comes out of raging against the machine.
                    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
                      Religion provides comfort and happiness to many people. Does it surprise you that believers resist thinking about, or dwelling on inconsistencies and/or troubling history if they are enjoying their current life and they find comfort in the teachings of their faith? It shouldn't be surprising. What are you trying to accomplish in your deriding of believers by calling them ignorant, idiots or "insert your pet pejorative"? Are you trying to remove enjoyment and peace from their life? That's kind of a dick move. Its faith man, it can't be understood by logical proof or evidence because its just that, a belief in the absence of evidence, or even belief despite contrary evidence (in your opinion). You can keep presenting these dichotomies, and believers just won't care, or won't want to care, and that's ok. It really is, I promise.

                      If believers are attacking you because of your lack of belief, I am sorry to hear that. I know it happens from time to time. I can promise you will be happier if you stop worrying about what others think about you, because they probably don't care what you think about them.
                      More proof FS knows how to exmo better than anyone. If I ever bailed I'd follow directly in your footsteps.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by smokymountainrain View Post
                        just answering the first question because the post is simply tl;dr...

                        because there is truth in many different churches. hope that helps.
                        Is that really your honest answer? I don't think anybody is asking anybody to find out whether their church teaches true things or not, but whether or not their church is God's one and only true church. They are asking if "all the other churches are an abomination in my sight and you are to join none of them. They draw near unto me with their lips but their hearts are far from me." Isn't that what we're basically told to ask as Mormons? I know I was, at least in the MTC anyway.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by old_gregg View Post
                          tkd why are you so full of angst bro? nothing good comes out of raging against the machine.
                          I'm not sure what you mean by that. As I said in my post, it's kind of the crux of the thing for me. Others seem to think I don't have a leg to stand on in my unbelief, but that is the whole issue in my mind. Is there not a good answer to my question anywhere? Is that why guys like Iman are getting so mad about this? Because I actually have picked a question there's no good answer to? I admit I don't have an answer to this question that satisfies me enough to go back to Mormonism, but surely it's not the first time people on this site have thought about it. I may not agree with people's take on it but I would certainly like to HEAR them. I have been known to change my mind from time to time (obviously. I'm an exmo).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by taekwondave View Post
                            Is that really your honest answer? I don't think anybody is asking anybody to find out whether their church teaches true things or not, but whether or not their church is God's one and only true church. They are asking if "all the other churches are an abomination in my sight and you are to join none of them. They draw near unto me with their lips but their hearts are far from me." Isn't that what we're basically told to ask as Mormons? I know I was, at least in the MTC anyway.
                            i never asked to know if our church was the only true church. heck, the BoM promise in Moroni doesn't even mention that. it says to ask if these things are true, (I think, I'm not the lds scholar you once were).

                            tkd, in all seriousness, whether the lds church is the only true church or not, is irrelevant. perhaps that's why I never prayed that way. the question I ask myself is whether or not it brings me closer to Christ, does it make me and those I care about most better/happy and does it motivate me to serve people? The answer to all those things is yes - hence the reason I'm still all in and probably always will be.
                            Last edited by smokymountainrain; 08-17-2016, 02:05 PM.
                            I'm like LeBron James.
                            -mpfunk

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BlueK View Post
                              I've personally never met a Christian person who ever prayed specifically to know about whether their church is true, much less got an answer. They just don't seem to frame things that way. That's almost uniquely an LDS way of looking at things. Maybe they're out there, but I haven't ever encountered it. If they were to pray about a certain church, likely their protestant upbringing means they frame the question more around whether that's the right church for them (usually meaning the specific congregation, not the denomination). If they got a yes answer to that I'd say great. Whenever I have talked with someone who expresses some personal revelation or spiritual experience they had, I just express joy in the experience with them and thank them for sharing with me, regardless of what church they attend. And if they said they prayed about their church I'd assume God led them to where they are for a reason and leave it at that. So what. I guess maybe it doesn't bother me in the least because I don't think of my own LDS faith the way you assume all LDS must think of theirs. But you do seem a little like my mother in law. I've commented to my wife before that sometimes it feels to me like she and I aren't in the same religion, although in name I guess we are. She's also extremely black and white, and superficial, in my view. But whatever. I guess we all try to do the best we can.
                              Alright see that was at least an attempt to answer the actual question I asked. So yes, you would fall under the "I don't think they do pray about it" group. I have come to reject the idea that this is a purely Mormon practice as I have come across some evidence to the contrary but I won't present you with that since this wasn't a post intended to argue my point. It's a post to see if someone has in fact thought about this in a way I have not yet. Thank you for the reply. And I'm sure your mother in law is just as awful as me.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X