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Thread: The 2020 Presidential Election Primary Thread

  1. #2191
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
    the standard for libel is pretty high in this case because Gabbard as a member of Congress qualifies as a public official. She'd have to prove that Clinton knows for a fact Gabbard is not a Russian asset but said she was anyway. I don't know how you really prove what's in Clinton's head. Then she'd have to show she was damaged by it, which would also be hard to prove since it's getting her favorable publicity on the right and gigs on Fox news.
    Oh brother. I think it is pretty clear Tulsi is doing this to run interference for her buddy Bernie, not because she actually thinks she has a case. Gabbard is persona non grata with the Dem party since she resigned from the DNC in 2016. As long as she stays in, she is the lightning rod for attacks that would otherwise be directed at Bernie.
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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    This is a great exchange.

    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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  3. #2193
    𐐐𐐄𐐢𐐆𐐤𐐝 𐐓𐐅 𐐜 𐐢𐐃𐐡𐐔 Uncle Ted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    This is a great exchange.

    That guy is absolutely right.
    LOL... that is going to make for some good memes:

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  4. #2194

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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    You don't really believe that, do you? That this is only about "hurt feelings"?
    What else is it about? Since when do political candidates go around suing their critics? Entitled whiny baby behavior.

  5. #2195
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    What else is it about? Since when do political candidates go around suing their critics? Entitled whiny baby behavior.
    It kind of sounds like what we have been hearing from those whiny baby house managers the last few days telling the senate:

    OK, we don't have a high crime or even a crime that Drumpf did but here's what we got:

    Article 1: Drumpf bad.

    Article 2: Drumpf hurt our feelings.

    Therefore, we want you to do our jobs for us and call some more witnesses and get some emails to find a crime that bad orange man committed. BTW, we are taking away your cell phones... and don't any of you think about leaving. That includes you, Feinstein!
    Speaking of those whiny house managers...

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  6. #2196
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    LOL... that is going to make for some good memes:

    Ted, awesome. Elizabeth Warren is such a dolt.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

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  7. #2197
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Ted, awesome. Elizabeth Warren is such a dolt.
    This loan forgiveness thing makes my blood boil.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  8. #2198
    Huge Member BigPiney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    This loan forgiveness thing makes my blood boil.
    Agreed. I was talking with one of my most liberal friends. She also didn't understand how anyone could think it was a good idea.

  9. #2199

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    How does everyone feel about bankruptcy?

  10. #2200
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    How does everyone feel about bankruptcy?
    I'd prefer not to declare it. You?
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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  11. #2201
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    How does everyone feel about bankruptcy?
    I save my money and don't take out loans I can't pay back so I can avoid it. How do you feel about it?
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  12. #2202

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    How does everyone feel about bankruptcy?
    i think college loans should be able to be discharged in bankruptcy just like any other loan. It would change the market and rates for college debt but that is OK.
    Dyslexics are teople poo...

  13. #2203
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    How does everyone feel about bankruptcy?
    You don't get the purpose of bankruptcy, do you? Bankruptcy was actually a purely American innovation to encourage entrepreneurship. It's actually one of the reasons America is so successful and this law has been imitated everywhere. A law or policy to blanket forgive student loans has absolutely nothing to do with bankruptcy. It's just Elizabeth Warren trying to get votes by promising free stuff to Millennials. She doesn't even believe in this. She believes in nothing. She's an empty suit.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

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  14. #2204
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    How does everyone feel about bankruptcy?
    I can accept people that declare bankruptcy due to some catastrophic circumstances in their life/financial situation, especially if due to obligations they didn't willingly take on. Hypothetical example: Random person slips on homeowner's sidewalk and wins a liability suit against homeowner (and potentially homeowner's insurance company) for tons of money. Homeowner's insurance covers some of it but homeowner is held responsible for a chunk as well. Homeowner doesn't have significant savings and declares bankruptcy to protect herself from barracuda creditors.

    I have a real hard time accepting bankruptcy for people who make poor decisions to run up tons of consumer debt and use bankruptcy as a means to avoid obligations they willingly took on. Real-world example: My deadbeat Sister-in-law and her husband have made piss-poor financial decisions their whole life. Taking on mountains of debt to fuel a lifestyle they have no business living. They can't pay a mortgage but they somehow manage to drop thousands on World Series tickets for their favorite team. They don't have any savings but when Gradma (my wife's mom) gives each of her kids a $10K gift they take a trip to Cancun.

    What did Mrs. Meanie and I do with the $10k? We put it in our kids' 529 accounts. (EDIT: In Liz Warren's world, I'm a sucker for doing so. I should have taken the 10k and gone to Cancun and let my kids take out massive student loans and try to get "the rich" to pay for it all by "paying their fair share"). Fast forward a couple of years and now deadbeat and her deadbeat husband borrow $30K off grandma, and somehow manage to get a loan of $50K from some other lender, and buy a bakery. Do they have any experience running a bakery or any type of business? Nope. Did they do any due diligence on the bakery, any market analysis, any type of thought beyond "Hey, wanna buy that bakery? Hmm, sure why not? Let's hit up Grandma for some dough" (get it? dough?). Not that I could tell.

    Surprise surprise, the bakery that was in business for 15 years before them goes out of business in 8 months under their management. So the $50K creditor comes calling. Do they go and get real jobs and work to pay off their debt? Nope. "Whee! Let's just declare bankruptcy so we don't have to be responsible for our actions!". So they file bankruptcy. Grandma got screwed out her $30K. The judge gave the creditor pennies on the dollar. The only consequence to deadbeat? The judge made them move from their expensive rental to a more downsized rental.

    So that's how I feel about bankruptcy. A solution that should be used as sparingly as possible and certainly not to relieve people of the consequences of their poor financial decisions while subsidizing a lifestyle they can't afford.
    Last edited by BigFatMeanie; 01-24-2020 at 03:49 PM.

  15. #2205
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    You don't get the purpose of bankruptcy, do you? Bankruptcy was actually a purely American innovation to encourage entrepreneurship. It's actually one of the reasons America is so successful and this law has been imitated everywhere. A law or policy to blanket forgive student loans has absolutely nothing to do with bankruptcy. It's just Elizabeth Warren trying to get votes by promising free stuff to Millennials. She doesn't even believe in this. She believes in nothing. She's an empty suit.
    Exactly. It is lunacy and outrageously unfair to people who have scraped their way to save for college and pay off debt.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  16. #2206
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Exactly. It is lunacy and outrageously unfair to people who have scraped their way to save for college and pay off debt.
    Plus, we can't afford it and this is not the right fix. There's only a narrow stratum that's not repaying loans. For most people, the ones who go to four year colleges and graduate, it's a successful system. Another boondoggle for white privilege, ironically. Warren has lost her mind.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

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  17. #2207
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Plus, we can't afford it and this is not the right fix. There's only a narrow stratum that's not repaying loans. For most people, the ones who go to four year colleges and graduate, it's a successful system. Another boondoggle for white privilege, ironically. Warren has lost her mind.
    Yeah, that is the craziest thing about the idea. Welfare for college grads.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  18. #2208

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flystripper View Post
    i think college loans should be able to be discharged in bankruptcy just like any other loan. It would change the market and rates for college debt but that is OK.
    Thanks, as I understand it student loans were not always protected from being discharged during bankruptcy. I think some kind of student loan reform needs to happen, at the very getting Betsy Devos out of there.

    I get those who find student loan forgiveness as foolish or risky but fail to appreciate the great moral outrage. Someone's parents had the resources to pay for their education - good for them. I worked plenty hard to make it through college with zero help from anyone. Do I have student loans? Yes, only from graduate school. I worked full-time and earned a scholarship during my undergrad. If I didn't go to grad school, and wasn't carrying student loan debt I don't think I'd be outraged by the injustice of this idea.

    If my parents paid for everything, I'd sure as shit hope I wouldn't be up in arms, as that didn't reflect any effort or merit on my part. Some people are really open-minded and tolerant but extremely judgmental of others when it comes to financial situations.

    Also, I don't believe the roots of bankruptcy were for purely or primarily capitalist reasons, although it is economically helpful. There's humanitarian reasons behind it. But one could say it's not fair that they worked two jobs to pay off their credit card balance while their neighbor maxed their's out and declared bankruptcy.

  19. #2209

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yeah, that is the craziest thing about the idea. Welfare for college grads.
    That's not welfare. That's debt relief. Not the same thing, but whatever.
    Last edited by frank ryan; 01-24-2020 at 09:59 PM.

  20. #2210
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    That's not welfate. That's debt relief. Not the same thing, but whatever.
    A similar argument could be made against the left's claims of "corporate welfare" is not really welfare, but incentives to foster economic growth.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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  21. #2211

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    A similar argument could be made against the left's claims of "corporate welfare" is not really welfare, but incentives to foster economic growth.
    I was being literal rather than philosophical. It's not welfare like cash assitance from the government or social security disability. Bankruptcy isn't welfare, it's debt relief.

    Welfare is used as a slur by the left for sure. I'm a lot less strident in how I feel about "corporate welfare," these days. Often states and municipalities need to cut deals to get jobs into their state. Certainly Utah's job market has been helped by business friendly policies (not to mention a heavily college educated population). However, sometimes certain deals governments make with companies are unwise and and giveaways and tax incentives cost a lot more than any economic benefit. And some businesses are preditory when it comes to all this. But yeah, it's common for a progressive person to knee-jerk respond to the idea of tax breaks for business development as corporate welfare, and that is often an underinformed perspective.

  22. #2212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Exactly. It is lunacy and outrageously unfair to people who have scraped their way to save for college and pay off debt.
    And whatís really stunning is that this is only the second craziest thing about the policy.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  23. #2213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yeah, that is the craziest thing about the idea. Welfare for college grads.
    And thereís the first craziest thing.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

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  26. #2216
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    So Hunter Biden spent a lot of time on trains which made him qualified to be on Amtrak's board... I am guessing even more qualified than he was to be a board member for an Ukrainian energy company.

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  27. #2217
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump

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  28. #2218
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    You can't expect a guy from Indiana know anything about basketball.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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  29. #2219

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Thanks, as I understand it student loans were not always protected from being discharged during bankruptcy. I think some kind of student loan reform needs to happen, at the very getting Betsy Devos out of there.

    I get those who find student loan forgiveness as foolish or risky but fail to appreciate the great moral outrage. Someone's parents had the resources to pay for their education - good for them. I worked plenty hard to make it through college with zero help from anyone. Do I have student loans? Yes, only from graduate school. I worked full-time and earned a scholarship during my undergrad. If I didn't go to grad school, and wasn't carrying student loan debt I don't think I'd be outraged by the injustice of this idea.

    If my parents paid for everything, I'd sure as shit hope I wouldn't be up in arms, as that didn't reflect any effort or merit on my part. Some people are really open-minded and tolerant but extremely judgmental of others when it comes to financial situations.

    Also, I don't believe the roots of bankruptcy were for purely or primarily capitalist reasons, although it is economically helpful. There's humanitarian reasons behind it. But one could say it's not fair that they worked two jobs to pay off their credit card balance while their neighbor maxed their's out and declared bankruptcy.
    I was responsible for every ounce of my undergrad and graduate education. I worked my ass off during my undergrad to not have to take out loans. I worked around 30 hours a week during the school year to stay afloat and was miserly about my finances so that I would have some sort of a nest egg built up when I went to grad school. I scrimped and saved every where I could during law school. My wife stayed at home and did odds and ends jobs to earn some to help as well. We had nothing, I should note that I still paid, out of my own pocket, for health insurance because I was responsible for my wife and child's welfare. However, we went without cable, cell phones, never ever ate out and were flat ass broke through the whole experience.

    I had many many classmates who did not go without, at all. They took loans to cover their extravagant living, and, mind you, they were single and had no children to care for. Their student loan debt was far more than mine by the time we graduated. In fact, I went on to complete an additional degree and given 2 more years of going to school, many of my classmates debt still was significantly higher than mine.

    What has happened since graduation? I paid off my loans just as fast as I could. I did buy a home, but my first home was modest so that I could be aggressive in paying my loans off. It took me 4 years, but we paid those suckers off (around $150k). I am still in contact with several of my classmates who, more than a decade later, have made only modest dents in their loans. Why? Because they bought nice homes and nice cars, went on super lavish vacations. My favorite is a woman who graduated the same year I did who just can't stop complaining about student loans. This same woman recently bought a porche panamera. Fully financed, mind you.

    Yeah, I am not really interested in now helping these folks pay off their student loans. I don't begrudge them for how they chose to live and continue to choose to live. I would absolutely be pissed off if these folks are rewarded with a cancellation of their debts and all the while I worked my ass off and lived way way beneath their standard of living both during, after, and presently, simply because I am financially responsible and they choose not to be.
    Last edited by imanihonjin; 01-27-2020 at 12:28 PM.

  30. #2220
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    I was responsible for every ounce of my undergrad and graduate education. I worked my ass off during my undergrad to not have to take out loans. I worked around 30 hours a week during the school year to stay afloat and was miserly about my finances so that I would have some sort of a nest egg built up when I went to grad school. I scrimped and saved every where I could during law school. My wife stayed at home and did odds and ends jobs to earn some to help as well. We had nothing, I should note that I still paid, out of my own pocket, for health insurance because I was responsible for my wife and child's welfare. However, we went without cable, cell phones, never ever ate out and were flat ass broke through the whole experience.

    I had many many classmates who did not go without, at all. They took loans to cover their extravagant living, and mind you they were single and had no children to care for. Their student loan debt was far more than mine by the time we graduated. In fact, I went on to complete an additional degree and given 2 more years of going to school, many of my classmates debt still was significantly higher than mine.

    What has happened since graduation? I paid off my loans just as fast as I could. I did buy a home, but my first home was modest so that I could be aggressive in paying my loans off. It took me 4 years, but we paid those suckers off (around $150k). I am still in contact with several of my classmates who, more than a decade later, have made only modest dents in their loans. Why? Because they bought nice homes and nice cars, went on super lavish vacations. My favorite is a woman who graduated the same year I did who just can't stop complaining about student loans. This same woman recently bought a porche panamera. Fully financed, mind you.

    Yeah, I am not really interested in now helping these folks pay off their student loans. I don't begrudge them for how they chose to live and continue to chose to live. I would absolutely be pissed off if these folks are rewarded with a cancellation of their debts and all the while I worked my ass off and lived way way beneath their standard of living both during, after, and presently, simply because I am financially responsible and they choose not to be.
    Sucker.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

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