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Thread: Just wanted to give '71 another reason to complain about the Honor Code

  1. #391
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    I take every comparison to SeattleUte as a compliment. Thank you. Maybe you aren't all bad.
    Yeah, I have noticed you are trying every possible to identify with SU these days. Ironically, this is one of SU's favorite quotes:

    "Stop being so damned obsequious."
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  2. #392

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yeah, I have noticed you are trying every possible to identify with SU these days. Ironically, this is one of SU's favorite quotes:

    "Stop being so damned obsequious."
    I'm not being obsequious I will not follow his absurd beliefs regarding beer. Sure, I love a good scotch or whiskey as well, but I'm not going to abandon the one true alcoholic beverage for these admittedly delicious spirits.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  3. #393

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    Amnesty really needs to be for anything uncovered in the investigation. Anything short gets in the way of reporting. Which battle does BYU want to pick?

  4. #394
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    I'm not being obsequious I will not follow his absurd beliefs regarding beer. Sure, I love a good scotch or whiskey as well, but I'm not going to abandon the one true alcoholic beverage for these admittedly delicious spirits.
    Yeah, you never give up on the one true anything for something else. You have always loved the one true sport, basketball, baseball, hockey! You're devotion to the one true franchise, the Portland Trailblazers, the Oakland A's, the Chicago Blackhawks, has never waivered!
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

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  5. #395
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    Amnesty really needs to be for anything uncovered in the investigation. Anything short gets in the way of reporting. Which battle does BYU want to pick?


    Just to clarify, are you saying it shouldn't matter if people lie, cheat, steal, drink, do drugs, possibly for years while at BYU, and as soon as they are assaulted they should get an instant pass on all of those HC violations?

  6. #396

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post


    Just to clarify, are you saying it shouldn't matter if people lie, cheat, steal, drink, do drugs, possibly for years while at BYU, and as soon as they are assaulted they should get an instant pass on all of those HC violations?
    Yes. If they were able to keep everything under wraps for years, they somehow slipped through the cracks. The more skeletons they have in the closet, the more pressure they'll have not to report a sexual assault, for fear of punitive action.

    So which battle would you pick? Would you rather hold people accountable for HC violations that otherwise would have remained secret, or go after sexual assault?

  7. #397

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post


    Just to clarify, are you saying it shouldn't matter if people lie, cheat, steal, drink, do drugs, possibly for years while at BYU, and as soon as they are assaulted they should get an instant pass on all of those HC violations?
    ...do you not think this?
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  8. #398
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    ...do you not think this?
    First, I should have modified my statement to "as soon as they claim they are assaulted".
    Second, no, I don't think that a student who, say, cheated regularly through multiple years at BYU should get a pass on it once they allege assault with the Title IX office, if somehow that information came out during the Title IX investigation and had nothing to do with the alleged assault.

  9. #399

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    Second, no, I don't think that a student who, say, cheated regularly through multiple years at BYU should get a pass on it once they allege assault with the Title IX office, if somehow that information came out during the Title IX investigation and had nothing to do with the alleged assault.
    yes this cheating hypothetical makes a lot of sense
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  10. #400
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Apparently, Cornell, Northwestern, Tulane, Boston University, and a whole host of other schools have "at or near the time" amnesty clauses but not "100% blanket amnesty for anything wrong you ever did while you were a student" clauses so I guess I'm not alone in my thinking.

  11. #401

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    Apparently, Cornell, Northwestern, Tulane, Boston University, and a whole host of other schools have "at or near the time" amnesty clauses but not "100% blanket amnesty for anything wrong you ever did while you were a student" clauses so I guess I'm not alone in my thinking.
    they also don't kick people out of school for drinking alcohol or being in the bedroom of a member of the opposite sex
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  12. #402
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    yes this cheating hypothetical makes a lot of sense
    Great. Glad to see we're on the same page.

  13. #403

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    In all seriousness, yikes, this is bad.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-1...ual?fullpage=1
    And the Trib wins a Pulitzer for this investigation.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/5161643-1...s-pulitzer-for
    "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
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  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    And the Trib wins a Pulitzer for this investigation.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/5161643-1...s-pulitzer-for
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  15. #405
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    DeVos planning to scrap Obama rules on campus sexual assault.

    http://www.heraldextra.com/news/loca...ntent=headline

    This might be a good move, on balance. Seems crazy that we are relying on these fake courts set up on campuses.

    In her speech, DeVos described “increasingly elaborate and confusing guidelines” that have harmed students on both sides of the debate. She criticized the standard of evidence and said the system has led schools to create “kangaroo courts” overseen by campus officials who don’t always have legal training.

    “Every survivor of sexual misconduct must be taken seriously. Every student accused of sexual misconduct must know that guilt is not predetermined,” she said. “These are non-negotiable principles.”
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  16. #406

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    DeVos planning to scrap Obama rules on campus sexual assault.

    http://www.heraldextra.com/news/loca...ntent=headline

    This might be a good move, on balance. Seems crazy that we are relying on these fake courts set up on campuses.
    Fake courts, fake news, amiright?

    I'm not sure how bad the problem is. Philosophically, I get the argument that it's wrong have differing burdens of proof in cases of campus and civil sexual assault. But if I'm reading the article right, she is blasting the Obama-era rules without having any specific remedies to put in their place. So she's politicized an already charged issue.

  17. #407
    Huge Member BigPiney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Fake courts, fake news, amiright?

    I'm not sure how bad the problem is. Philosophically, I get the argument that it's wrong have differing burdens of proof in cases of campus and civil sexual assault. But if I'm reading the article right, she is blasting the Obama-era rules without having any specific remedies to put in their place. So she's politicized an already charged issue.
    I saw this article yesterday: https://reason.com/blog/2017/09/07/d...ple-cases-rape

    Pretty crazy stuff there if true.

    The discussion on NPR that I heard last night seemed to approve of what Devos was doing here.

  18. #408

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Fake courts, fake news, amiright?

    I'm not sure how bad the problem is. Philosophically, I get the argument that it's wrong have differing burdens of proof in cases of campus and civil sexual assault. But if I'm reading the article right, she is blasting the Obama-era rules without having any specific remedies to put in their place. So she's politicized an already charged issue.
    isn't a police investigations all the remedy there needs to be
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  19. #409
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigPiney View Post
    I saw this article yesterday: https://reason.com/blog/2017/09/07/d...ple-cases-rape

    Pretty crazy stuff there if true.

    The discussion on NPR that I heard last night seemed to approve of what Devos was doing here.
    The current system is insane. I don't care if she is a Trump appointee, she is right about this issue.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  20. #410

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigPiney View Post
    I saw this article yesterday: https://reason.com/blog/2017/09/07/d...ple-cases-rape

    Pretty crazy stuff there if true.

    The discussion on NPR that I heard last night seemed to approve of what Devos was doing here.
    Yeah, those are some crazy things that have happened, no doubt due in part to overcautious interpretation of regulations. I would really like to know the details of how Obama changed Title IX investigations, and if those changes are to blame for those specific cases.

    I noticed that each of the hyperlinks went to other Reason.com articles. I don't have a beef with a lot of what Reason publishes, but still, they are squarely on one side of the spectrum. They highlight these cases because they go against a few of their libertarian philosophies. I think it's safe to assume that there is a legitimate other side of the story we are not hearing, at least with some of those cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    isn't a police investigations all the remedy there needs to be
    I think that would go a long way with remedying the types of cases that BP linked to above.

  21. #411

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    isn't a police investigations all the remedy there needs to be
    Sure if they actually did an investigation instead of the way that sexual assaults are frequently treated by the police. How many untested rape kits are there in Utah?
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  22. #412

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Sure if they actually did an investigation instead of the way that sexual assaults are frequently treated by the police. How many untested rape kits are there in Utah?
    separate issue though right bro?
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  23. #413
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Sure if they actually did an investigation instead of the way that sexual assaults are frequently treated by the police. How many untested rape kits are there in Utah?
    So the answer is to get a bunch of people with little or no legal training/background to adjudicate this stuff?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  24. #414

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    separate issue though right bro?
    Sure, separate issues bro. You did say that a police investigation should be the cure. It could be the cure if the investigations are done properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    So the answer is to get a bunch of people with little or no legal training/background to adjudicate this stuff?
    Nope. I just don't trust the current state of the police department to investigate this stuff. But like old_gregg said, it is a separate issue bro. I think the answer is get some people with legal training/background to handle the Title IX stuff. That sounds like a good idea.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  25. #415
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Sure, separate issues bro. You did say that a police investigation should be the cure. It could be the cure if the investigations are done properly.



    Nope. I just don't trust the current state of the police department to investigate this stuff. But like old_gregg said, it is a separate issue bro. I think the answer is get some people with legal training/background to handle the Title IX stuff. That sounds like a good idea.
    So we can fix the universities to properly deal with these issues, but we can't fix our criminal justice system?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  26. #416

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    Good job BYU, now work on bringing what the sponsoring religion teaches children in line with this approach as well. Clearly, this is a good person to have on the advisory committee for sexual assault.

    http://kutv.com/news/local/byu-profe...sexual-assault
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  27. #417
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taekwondave View Post
    I think the point that was argued was that the church should be safe from criticism for this chewing gum teaching if they don't come out specifically and counsel against it. I was arguing that this teaching is prevalent enough and stems directly enough from their own scriptures and teachings that they deserve no such safeguard. If in fact they are counseling people not to use that analogy anymore, good for them. But until then I think it's fine to suggest that they do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    I think it's silly for the church to make a blanket statement as a whole about any dumb analogy that's been used in the past. Simply because while you might be saying "don't do this", you just know that someone is going to pick it up, file it away in their brain somewhere, and then pull it out and use it years later thinking it was a good analogy instead of a "don't use this" analogy. Plus - some people are just dumb.

    On the other hand - I think that an ongoing and continual reinforcement of doctrine/principles is the way to go. Where perhaps the church teaches that sexual purity is important - while reinforcing that no one can take your purity from you without your consent. And perhaps even reinforcing the concept of the atonement making the sinner whole - as if the sin had never happened. Obviously I think you've got to be careful so that all of the high school kids aren't thinking they can try this sex thing out and then just repent later. That's not what we're going for either. But can we allow people to improve themselves?
    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    I just searched LDS.org and found nothing relating chastity to chewing gum. So you want the Brethren to repudiate something they never said? I'm willing to bet that some YW leader came up with that analogy, just like the wilted rose and the licked cupcake.
    This one with swordfish(?) fillets looks promising.



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  28. #418
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    This one with swordfish(?) fillets looks promising.



    https://twitter.com/renoomokri/statu...81736552476673
    This belongs in the thread.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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  29. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    This belongs in the thread.
    This must be some sick whacked out sense of disturbed humor. No way is that legitimate.
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