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Thread: Just wanted to give '71 another reason to complain about the Honor Code

  1. #1

    Default Just wanted to give '71 another reason to complain about the Honor Code

    In all seriousness, yikes, this is bad.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-1...ual?fullpage=1

  2. #2
    Senior Member byu71's Avatar
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    I haven't griped about it in a while have I. It is what it is no matter how archaic it is.

    This is is totally contrary to a reasonable person's first thought would be. However, I am not condoning the action, but I think it is a result of the honor code itself.

    There are false accusations made in Utah county and at BYU at a higher level than most places. I have been told this by actual law enforcement people.

    A sexual assault is about a low life action as there is. It is a violation against the weaker (physically) sex which any father fears might happen to their daughter.

    While maybe not the equivalent, a false accusation of sexual assault can be devastating to the accused as well.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Both sexual assault and false claims of sexual assault are evil.

    I've investigated child sexual abuse cases in the past. Ugly all the way around. No other way to describe it.

    I've seen what can happen to a man when a step-child claims he touched her because she's used to getting her way with mom and wants the new guy out of the house so that things will go back to normal. Also ugly.

    Quite frankly, I'm glad I'm no longer in a position to have to assess who is telling the truth and who is lying.

    I can certainly see BYU's concern - they don't want to make filing a claim of sexual assault a "get out of jail free" card for the women, thereby encouraging women to do so if they are worried they may be kicked out of school for their behavior. But to re-victimize and re-traumatize the victims of actual sexual assault like this is unconscionable.

  4. #4

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    holy cow.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  5. #5

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    -----------------------
    Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 09-13-2016 at 09:15 AM.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
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  6. #6
    Suomalainen New Mexican Disaster's Avatar
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    Terrible.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    This is really indefensible. The policy needs to be changed.

    The we do not apologize for this statement is just baffling.
    BYU doesn't need to apologize for having an Honor Code. I agree with them on that.

    But they may owe a few apologies for their actions as it relates to people who are being looked at for possibly violating said honor code. And they maybe could take a closer look at the consequences the honor code is allowed to enforce on people.

  8. #8

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    The comment section of that trib article is going to be huge and stinky.

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    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wally View Post
    The comment section of that trib article is going to be huge and stinky.
    Yeah. There will be a TON of Ute fans commenting there, no doubt.

  10. #10
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wally View Post
    The comment section of that trib article is going to be huge and stinky.
    Yeah, this whole story is the perfect storm for the social media culture warriors.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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  11. #11

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    -----------------------
    Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 09-13-2016 at 09:15 AM.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  12. #12

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    Yikes. This looks really bad. I don't see how BYU wins this battle in the public eye. If students are to be encouraged to report sexual assault, linking it to potential honor code punishment will have the exact opposite effect.

    I wonder if this story will gain enough traction to stop honor code investigations in sexual assault cases.

  13. #13
    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Uh yeah WTF is wrong with people who enforce the Honor Code at BYU?

    A girl reports a rape that occurs after she was drinking or doing drugs and you kick her out of school? And you don't apologize for it? So embarrassingly stupid and unkind. Ugh.

  14. #14

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    On the one hand people shouldn't expect to divorce themselves from the consequences of their poor choices just because something horrible happened to them. On the other, can't we just decide that they've been punished suffered enough for their poor choices by having something horrible happen to them that we don't need to kick them out of school? There's really no easy answer here, but I welcome the transparency.
    Last edited by Bo Diddley; 04-13-2016 at 09:24 PM.

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    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
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    I love byu. I hate the honor code less than the average poster here. But it's a good rule that if someone reports a sexual assault the HC office should stay the hell away and let the police handle it. Yes this may lead to a few more girls making false accusations to avoid HC trouble but it is clearly best to err on the side of compassion for alleged victims, both PR wise and just out of common decency.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    On the one hand people shouldn't expect to divorce themselves from the consequences of their poor choices just because something horrible happened to them. On the other, can't we just decide that they've been punished enough for their poor choices by having something horrible happen to them that we don't need to kick them out of school? There's really no easy answer here, but I welcome the transparency.
    Rape isn't a punishment or consequence it's a crime.

  17. #17

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    Semantics.

  18. #18
    CS Institutional Memory Jarid in Cedar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    Semantics.
    Hardly. Punishment is an understood penalty for violating a law or rule. Traffic tickets, misdemeanors, felonies, even the honor code have understood punishments if you are guilty of the offense.

    What rule or law violation is rape considered an understandable or expected punishment?
    "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
    Hardly. Punishment is an understood penalty for violating a law or rule. Traffic tickets, misdemeanors, felonies, even the honor code have understood punishments if you are guilty of the offense.

    What rule or law violation is rape considered an understandable or expected punishment?
    In the context that I used it, I'm suggesting that a negative consequence is a proxy to any formal punishment that might otherwise be handed out for breaking the honor code.

  20. #20
    CS Institutional Memory Jarid in Cedar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    In the context that I used it, I'm suggesting that a negative consequence is a proxy to any formal punishment that might otherwise be handed out for breaking the honor code.
    I see you changed the ending of your original post, which reflects more what you were wanting to say, but I would like some clarification.

    You keep saying that we can't remove consequences from poor choices, to which I agree. However, I would like to have you explain what poor choices you consider have rape as an expected consequence.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

    "They talk about the economy this year. Hey, my hairline is in recession, my waistline is in inflation. Altogether, I'm in a depression."

    "I like to bike. I could beat Lance Armstrong, only because he couldn't pass me if he was behind me."

    -Rick Majerus

  21. #21

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    I haven't considered any scenarios where rape should be an expected consequence. But certainly the example of the lady who took drugs left her vulnerable. Poor choices like that can open the door to such awful outcomes.
    Last edited by Bo Diddley; 04-14-2016 at 06:26 AM.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    I haven't considered and scenarios where rape should be an expected consequence. But certainly the example of the lady who took drugs left her vulnerable. Put choices like that can open the door to such awful outcomes.
    of course there are things you can do to make yourself vulnerable. But the last thing the police should worry about is reporting a victim to the HCO when someone reports a rape.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    I love byu. I hate the honor code less than the average poster here. But it's a good rule that if someone reports a sexual assault the HC office should stay the hell away and let the police handle it. Yes this may lead to a few more girls making false accusations to avoid HC trouble but it is clearly best to err on the side of compassion for alleged victims, both PR wise and just out of common decency.
    I love BYU athletics, but I hate BYU. I would never let my kids attend BYU, and if I had to do over again, I would never go to BYU. Stuff like this just reinforces my feeling that BYU is a cruel joke. that said, Rise and Shout!

  24. #24
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
    I love BYU athletics, but I hate BYU. I would never let my kids attend BYU, and if I had to do over again, I would never go to BYU. Stuff like this just reinforces my feeling that BYU is a cruel joke. that said, Rise and Shout!
    This is the Ben Carson endorsement of byu
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    of course there are things you can do to make yourself vulnerable. But the last thing the police should worry about is reporting a victim to the HCO when someone reports a rape.
    The police don't report to the HC office. The problem seems to be when students go see the Title IX folks at BYU. That said, stuff becomes public knowledge during a police investigation, and public knowledge has a way of getting to the HC Office.
    Last edited by Bo Diddley; 04-14-2016 at 06:26 AM.

  26. #26
    Philosopher of Men Sleeping in EQ's Avatar
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    I can imagine a lawyer arguing that BYU's practices in this regard violate Title IX.
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
    I love BYU athletics, but I hate BYU. I would never let my kids attend BYU, and if I had to do over again, I would never go to BYU. Stuff like this just reinforces my feeling that BYU is a cruel joke. that said, Rise and Shout!
    I agree. Except that I hate BYU athletics too.


  28. #28
    Senior Member byu71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
    I love BYU athletics, but I hate BYU. I would never let my kids attend BYU, and if I had to do over again, I would never go to BYU. Stuff like this just reinforces my feeling that BYU is a cruel joke. that said, Rise and Shout!
    I am addicted to BYU athletics. Don't know if that is the same as love. I do love the athletes at BYU and appreciate how they carry themselves realizing they are young and college students and are not perfect. Heck, I guess no one is. That's why I feel bad and somewhat angry when someone slips according to BYU standards and it becomes a public discussion.

    BYU is a great academic institution and kids are lucky to go there and so are their parents when you consider the value you get for the dollar.

    That all being said, if one of my grandkids asked my opinion on accepting an athletic scholarship, I would dissuade them from going to BYU. The price you may pay for a slip up isn't worth it, IMHO.

  29. #29
    Princeps Inter Pares
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    This is really just BYU's flavor of the problem of colleges trying to address sexual assault on college campuses. Trying to protect victims and afford due process to the accused has proven to be too difficult a task for colleges across the country. Better to simply refer the matter to law enforcement and let them handle it.

    BYU's flavor of the problem is unique in that it asserts an interest in otherwise lawful conduct. But the solution's only a little different. If you don't want the University to have to delve into these issues and inevitably get it wrong from time to time, then leave it to the bishops. The honor code office should be reduced to approximately three people entering ecclesiastical endorsements into excel-- if not disbanded altogether.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    This is really just BYU's flavor of the problem of colleges trying to address sexual assault on college campuses. Trying to protect victims and afford due process to the accused has proven to be too difficult a task for colleges across the country. Better to simply refer the matter to law enforcement and let them handle it.

    BYU's flavor of the problem is unique in that it asserts an interest in otherwise lawful conduct. But the solution's only a little different. If you don't want the University to have to delve into these issues and inevitably get it wrong from time to time, then leave it to the bishops. The honor code office should be reduced to approximately three people entering ecclesiastical endorsements into excel-- if not disbanded altogether.
    This was where I was leaning as I thought about it yesterday.

    I totally agree about Law Enforcement as well. My wife has a cousin how teaches at College of Charleston, and I remember a year or so ago she was going off about how the administration was trying to tell them they couldn't refer students to law enforcement, but rather to work internally first.
    Last edited by Jeff Lebowski; 04-14-2016 at 10:31 AM.

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