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Thread: Trigger warnings, safe spaces, and fascism on college campuses

  1. #61
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    Well said. I tire of people today who stand on the shoulders of history's philosophical giants and spit down at anyone in the past who wasn't 100% pure by today's standards. Jefferson and Washington were flawed like everyone else. But the balance of their lives were a huge net positive for America and the rest of the world.
    Jefferson was a politician, and as such he mirrored the flaws of his constituents in addition to being himself deeply flawed (he sexually abused an adolescent slave girl!). As a politician, he was a convenient person to mythologize and deify as every nation needs its founding myth. Also, as a politician, he contributed nothing original to the history of ideas. On the grounds that you and Lebowski want to continue to deify him we should actually be worshiping Locke, Hume, Adam Smith, Voltaire, Paine, and others who were truly original and courageous, instead of him.
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 11-25-2015 at 10:17 AM.
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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Whoa, wait a minute. Weren't you weeping at the Lincoln Memorial?
    I was weeping before the Gettysburg address.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Jefferson was a politician, and as such he mirrored the flaws of his constituents in addition to being himself deeply flawed (he sexually abused an adolescent slave girl!). As a politician, he was a convenient person to mythologize and deify as every nation needs its founding myth. Also, as a politician, he contributed nothing original to the history of ideas. On the grounds that you and Lebowski want to continue to deify him we should actually be worshiping Locke, Hume, Adam Smith, Voltaire, and others who were truly original and courageous, instead of him.
    There you go again with the false dichotomies! Who said I don't love and respect those others?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    There you go again with the false dichotomies! Who said I don't love and respect those others?
    We're talking about the University of Virginia's idolatry of Jefferson.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

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  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I was weeping before the Gettysburg address.
    Golden calf, statues of persons, carving of document.

    In my own worshiping of graven images, I point to the time I played fantasy football while it was just getting started. You should have seen the spreadsheet I created. It download the stats weekly, broke them down according to our league rules, told me who to play from week to week, etc. It was a thing of beauty!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    We're talking about the University of Virginia's idolatry of Jefferson.
    Where would UVA be without ole Tom? It is pure condescension to judge these persons of significant accomplishments simply because they do not conform to modern ideals. Many of the other thinkers also contributed and their positive accomplishments should be admired. Why not simply admire the positive traits of individuals, because of the fact that a flawed individual can still accomplish great things in other aspects of life should inspire each of us?

    You troll quite a bit, but always remain in character.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

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    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Jefferson was a politician, and as such he mirrored the flaws of his constituents in addition to being himself deeply flawed (he sexually abused an adolescent slave girl!). As a politician, he was a convenient person to mythologize and deify as every nation needs its founding myth. Also, as a politician, he contributed nothing original to the history of ideas. On the grounds that you and Lebowski want to continue to deify him we should actually be worshiping Locke, Hume, Adam Smith, Voltaire, Paine, and others who were truly original and courageous, instead of him.
    You're reaching, man. I don't deify Jefferson. I find actions in his personal conduct deplorable. I think his oft-repeated phrase about the tree of liberty being watered occasionally with the blood of tyrants and patriots is a dangerous sentiment that should be repudiated. But I can also walk and chew gum at the same time. To deny the great good Jefferson wrought on the nation and the lasting impact of his ideas because of his other sins is ridiculous. Even if his ideas were just a real-world synthesis of the great thinkers you mention, actually codified into a workable form of government. That's the great genius of the founders. I don't think anyone is arguing they should be elevated above the great philosophers as thinkers. But they were politicians facing real competing interests and real life and death situations, and yet managed to borrow and combine ideas from history and give birth to a system that was able to evolve (and continues to evolve) into the freest nation in history.

    I may come closer to deifying Washington. But he also deserves it more.

  8. #68
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    The part of Judaism and Islam I most agree with is no graven images (Christianity claims this rule too but absolutely does not live by it; it's a creed that adores men if there ever was one).
    Let's see. Here you talk about the Lincoln Memorial:

    http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...mple-yesterday

    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    See it calls itself a temple. It is a temple for all who love liberty.
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Did you cry? I always do.
    Here you talk about worshipping at all of the washington monuments (including the Jefferson memorial) :

    http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post998434

    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    ... I was nine, and those images have stayed with me ever since. I have always ever since pictured in my mind's eye the words inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson and Lincoln memorials ...

    Now there's an even richer experience to be had. You have the MLK memorial -- boy was he ever the Dr. J of oratory. His memorial is close to FDR's, and his quotations make FDR's lines look prosaic. And it seems he was never reading form a text. I love the huge MLK statue. The FDR memorial captures the man's strength, contributions to our republic and personal vulnerabilties perfectly....
    And finally, I give you this gem, where you put historical racism in context:

    http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post777249

    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    lol yes, all people of a certain generation or generations were racist. Lincoln for most of his political career was not an abolitionist. He rendered the emancipation proclamation when it suited him politically, and served the end of saving the Union. Our founding fathers enshrined slavery in the Constitution. I still have vivid memories of people I loved as a child saying racist things. We all do. SO WHAT. That's a singularly uninteresting and irrelevant point.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Senior Member Katy Lied's Avatar
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    I cry at the Lincoln too. Every time.

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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Jeff, I'm being consistent. I'm saying that you can contextualize racism all you want, but it doesn't exonerate the racists in any epoch. Here I have elaborated that there have always been people who opposed racism and had our outlook.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Jeff, I'm being consistent. I'm saying that you can contextualize racism all you want, but it doesn't exonerate the racists in any epoch. Here I have elaborated that there have always been people who opposed racism and had our outlook.
    Your unshakeable belief that you're always correct is, over time, perhaps the most consistent thing on this board.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Jeff, I'm being consistent. I'm saying that you can contextualize racism all you want, but it doesn't exonerate the racists in any epoch. Here I have elaborated that there have always been people who opposed racism and had our outlook.
    I agree with SeattleUte: BYU is racist. It should be shut down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Jeff, I'm being consistent. I'm saying that you can contextualize racism all you want, but it doesn't exonerate the racists in any epoch. Here I have elaborated that there have always been people who opposed racism and had our outlook.
    Have people always had a modern outlook on gay marriage? If you claim pederasty was consistent with gay marriage, then you are unfamiliar with its practice. Which is perfectly okay by me. You should consult some of your Ute brethren in case you are curious.
    Last edited by Topper; 11-25-2015 at 01:49 PM.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Default Trigger warnings, safe spaces, and fascism on college campuses

    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Jeff, I'm being consistent. I'm saying that you can contextualize racism all you want, but it doesn't exonerate the racists in any epoch. Here I have elaborated that there have always been people who opposed racism and had our outlook.
    Oh I think you are all over the map. But I still love you anyway. I am ok with flawed and complex people!
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    He is the Dr. J of CUF trolls!
    "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

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    Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

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    "Let us thank God for having given us such ancestors; and let each successive generation thank him, not less fervently, for being one step further from them in the march of ages." Nathaniel Hawthorne.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Not sure how accurate this story is, but the title and photo made me laugh.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...e-flag-laptop/
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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    Senior Member Omaha 680's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Not sure how accurate this story is, but the title and photo made me laugh.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...e-flag-laptop/
    Bias Protocol and Response Team?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Not sure how accurate this story is, but the title and photo made me laugh.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...e-flag-laptop/
    That's a 40 year old student who never got over the Bohemian look of the early to mid 90s.
    Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Not sure how accurate this story is, but the title and photo made me laugh.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...e-flag-laptop/
    Interesting. Framingham State University still uses what appears to be a Native American on it's official logo. Wonder if that counts as a bias incident?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framin...ersityLogo.png
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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Kind of long, but a very readable and insightful essay on princeton, woodrow wilson, and how to deal with difficult history.

    http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cul...the-ivy-league

    Did you know that Yale University is named after a slave-trader?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Kind of long, but a very readable and insightful essay on princeton, woodrow wilson, and how to deal with difficult history.

    http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cul...the-ivy-league

    Did you know that Yale University is named after a slave-trader?
    Yes. Did you know the State of Washington is named after a slave owner (hence a slave trader, no?)? That Amherst is named after the father of biological weapons? Jeffrey Amherst sold smallpox infected blankets to the Indians.

    I haven't read the New Yorker article yet. But it seems to me that here are some common sense rules.

    1) Recognize that in all epochs there have existed individuals who were as socially progressive as we are; so there is no absolute amnesty for historical figures based on the epoch in which they lived.

    2) However, accepting that there may be room for mitigation, by the 20th Century mitigation justification was rapidly dissipating.

    3) I think you have to distinguish between George Washington or Thomas Jefferson who essentially followed the path of least resistance, including maximizing their economic situations, while publicly recognizing slaver was wrong, and Woodrow Wilson, who in positions of immense power expanded Jim Crow into Princeton and the federal government (during the 20th century). (Nevertheless, Washington and Jefferson were of inferior character compared to many of their contemporaries.)

    4) There should be no exception to denouncing nor mitigation with respect to racism and apartheid after 1954.

    5) There should be no exception to denouncing nor mitigation with respect to men who have called themselves prophets, seers, and revelators.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift

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    Is it possible for a man to be a dynamic, once-in-a-lifetime leader/thinker/warrior/builder without having that talent be/accompany the trait of social progressiveness?
    "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Yes. Did you know the State of Washington is named after a slave owner (hence a slave trader, no?)? That Amherst is named after the father of biological weapons? Jeffrey Amherst sold smallpox infected blankets to the Indians.

    I haven't read the New Yorker article yet. But it seems to me that here are some common sense rules.

    1) Recognize that in all epochs there have existed individuals who were as socially progressive as we are; so there is no absolute amnesty for historical figures based on the epoch in which they lived.

    2) However, accepting that there may be room for mitigation, by the 20th Century mitigation justification was rapidly dissipating.

    3) I think you have to distinguish between George Washington or Thomas Jefferson who essentially followed the path of least resistance, including maximizing their economic situations, while publicly recognizing slaver was wrong, and Woodrow Wilson, who in positions of immense power expanded Jim Crow into Princeton and the federal government (during the 20th century). (Nevertheless, Washington and Jefferson were of inferior character compared to many of their contemporaries.)

    4) There should be no exception to denouncing nor mitigation with respect to racism and apartheid after 1954.

    5) There should be no exception to denouncing nor mitigation with respect to men who have called themselves prophets, seers, and revelators.
    You should read the article.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  26. #86
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    You should read the article.
    I'm sure I will.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift

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    Senior Member il Padrino Ute's Avatar
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    That there were more presidents of colleges and universities like this guy.

    http://www.okwu.edu/blog/2015/11/thi...-a-university/
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I'm sure I will.
    Not just the memo.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  29. #89

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    Woodrow Wilson was a total piece of shit. I'm not saying that Princeton should change the names of their buildings/colleges, etc.

    But just look at what Warren Harding, yes that Warren Harding, said about blacks and the positions he appointed them to. Wilson was really bad even by the standards of 1912-1920.

    I feel that there is a blind spot among everyone except historians regarding Wilson. It's probably because he resides in that ignored era between the Civil War and the Great Depression. Aside from James Buchanan, he was easily the worst president this country has ever had. First, he got the US involved in WWI. Prior to US involvement, the Germans/Central Powers and the French and British were heading towards a true compromise. With the US tilting the scales and with Wilson's progressive zeal, we ended up with the disastrous Versailles treaty. Then he advocated for the dissolution of Austria-Hungary and a mishmash of small countries in eastern and central Europe which the French and British didn't even want. It was then only a matter of time until the Germans and Russians were going to start fighting each other over these smaller countries.

    http://20committee.com/2015/04/24/wo...s-great-folly/
    Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
    Woodrow Wilson was a total piece of shit. I'm not saying that Princeton should change the names of their buildings/colleges, etc.

    But just look at what Warren Harding, yes that Warren Harding, said about blacks and the positions he appointed them to. Wilson was really bad even by the standards of 1912-1920.

    I feel that there is a blind spot among everyone except historians regarding Wilson. It's probably because he resides in that ignored era between the Civil War and the Great Depression. Aside from James Buchanan, he was easily the worst president this country has ever had. First, he got the US involved in WWI. Prior to US involvement, the Germans/Central Powers and the French and British were heading towards a true compromise. With the US tilting the scales and with Wilson's progressive zeal, we ended up with the disastrous Versailles treaty. Then he advocated for the dissolution of Austria-Hungary and a mishmash of small countries in eastern and central Europe which the French and British didn't even want. It was then only a matter of time until the Germans and Russians were going to start fighting each other over these smaller countries.

    http://20committee.com/2015/04/24/wo...s-great-folly/
    Many of the recently discussed aspects of him have been news to me and probably to many others. What Princeton does to him is its business but I can see why it would want to dissociate itself from him.

    Perhaps others had a more complete historical review of the Progressive Era of American History but mine involved probably less than ten minutes concerning Wilson.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

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